I don't know how many rounds I've actually put through my Smith and Wesson Model 17-9 Masterpiece. I have tried to shoot it every time I head out to the Little Farm but I do know that I am working through the 2000 round case of Aguila Standard Velocity I got for it plus the big ammo test.
The first issue I had ran into was a user error and I had forgotten that I could adjust the rear sight. After getting the sights zeroed for around 25 yards, I am able to regularly hit a 6 inch steel gong off hand with various loads. While the Aguila load is not the most accurate from the 17, it's what I will be shooting for the foreseeable future along with another test load from Remington. The gun club I'm apart of has a 100 yard rimfire range. On a few occasions, I have sat down and made attempts at hitting the various steel gongs and been successful on the much larger ones. I don't know how big they are at the moment. I did, however, spur my interest to find a more accurate load which spawned the ammo test.
I very much like the single action trigger pull but I still haven't figured out how to nail staging the double action trigger. I tend to pull through.
Somethings I've noticed with the high polish blue finish is that it dulls quickly. The muzzle area definitely wears from rubbing while in the holster. I try to clean it when I'm done for the day but I can never really get it back to that same shininess. Given that this is my first deep polished blued pistol, it does make me sad to see holster wear but that's the name of the game.
I also deleted the ILS with a TK Custom kit. Installing the kit was a good exercise in patience and base level gunsmithing. Getting the side plate off was fine and removing the hammer and other parts just fine. Putting in the plug took some effort but I was able successfully install the kit. Getting the gun back together was tricky. Specifically the new-style stirrup and which way it was supposed to go. I had installed in wrong and the trigger pull was terrible. Once I figured out what I had done wrong, I had to find a way to get the side plate back on. I learned I was being impeded by the hammer block. Once I figured out how to set it, everything went back together just wonderfully.
The finishes don't match which makes me wonder if TK Custom sent me a matte kit and not a polished black kit. The box has no markings to tell you which one it is. Speaking of TKC, I've found several other of their K frame .22 products and it's got me thinking about a Model 617 10-shot as a Steel Challenge Rimfire division gun. Griffin Gun Club hosts Steel Challenge matches regularly.
The ILS delete was successful.
Additionally, I added a plastic T-grip to fill in the undercut. It's not an original Tyler Grip. Ordering the official metal ones is sort of sketchy and I wish they would update the ordering process.
Additionally, I never did hear back from Smith and Wesson about the Master trigger job and if the Masterpiece has that level of treatment built in.
As part of the Big Ammo Test, I sat down at the Griffin Gun Club and tried 9 loads. I have the pictures but I feel as if I can do better. I forgot how far I set the target and I didn't measure the shot sizes. I also didn't run everything over a chronograph so I will be revisiting this soon. Below are the groups I shot that day.
Federal Champion 40 grain the Aguila High Velocity 40 grain
Eley HV Hollow Point 38 Gain and CCI Mini Mag 40 gr round nose
Remginton SuperV
The last time I tested ammo which was in the original article, I had different results. The CCI Mini Mags did pretty good. I had hoped the Eley HV Hollow Points had done better. They performed very well in a ballistic gel test and mushroomed nicely. I was wanting to be able to hunt with them. The Aguila did have some stringing but that could have been me. The new Remington SuperV load has been disappointing on all points. I have an article I'm working on for it but I want to get that test a better shake down but it won't be replacing my CCI Standard Velocity anytime soon.
So far, the Smith and Wesson Model 17-9 Masterpiece has become a favorite of mine. I still have plenty of the Aguila Standard Velocity and Remington SuperV bulk box for plinking. I also had ordered around 300 rounds of the Eley HV and still plan to zero and carry the gun with those for now. Maybe I can try to small game hunt with it this fall.
The short answer is yes, 16 inch barrels in the old 30-30 are still useful. The more interesting question is, how can I justify my statement? Extrapolating available data can be useful and until I have my own battery of lever action rifles in the same caliber with the different barrel lengths and a chronograph I trust, it's the best I can give you. That last statement is my ultimate goal. To provide the purchaser the data needed to decide if a .30-30 or .357 Mag lever action rifle in barrel lengths such as 13 inch, 16 inch and 20 inch are right for you.
Here's something you need to know. I will be comparing compiled data from three separate sources who used different chronographs in different regions of North America, at different times. These results are not as comparable as they can be. Ideally, we would have the same chronograph testing all the lengths on the same day with the same batch of ammo. Until I have everything needed, this will have to do. It should give us a good idea of what we can expect.
Let's go over what data I have found. I want to note that the 16 inch barrel data for .30-30 has been tricky to find but thankfully the 20 inch data is easily available. In fact, I had started this article a while back but couldn't find reliable data on the 16 inch until recently. Sadly, much of this information is still single-source at this time. The only load we have in common in the three sets of data are the Hornady LeverEvolution 160 grain factory load. Thankfully, it's a commonly available load.
Our sources for this data are a number of YouTube videos. Take that as you will. The Mason Leather ammo test series along with Brobee223's Elk Hunt 30-30 video will provide comparative data for 20 inch barrels. They also provide 100 yard expansion in most cases. Be careful in observing that some of the earlier Mason videos have the expansion testing at 50 yards and not 100. The Brobee223 video provides us bullet expansion data at 100 and 150 meters (not yards) as well as the velocities those bullets would have impacted the target. The 150m (164 yards) data is important as it provides us with bullet expansion at reduced velocities in what I'll call Estimated Lowest Velocity (ELV). Simply, what is the Estimated Lowest Velocity (not distance but velocity) that a bullet can impact a target and still expand and penetrate nicely? We will combine all that data and compare it to the 16 barrel data from the Husker Hunting video. We will run the 16 inch barrel data through a calculator and compare the ELV from the Brobee223 video to see where the load from the 16 inch would reach the reduced velocity figures.
Our only common example is the Hornady LeverEvolution 160 grain load. This load chronographs at 2347 fps from a 20 inch barrel per Lee Mason's video but the 16 inch barrel from Husker Hunting achieves 2289 fps. A difference of 58 fps. The ELV from the Brobee223 video is 1953 fps at 150 meters or 164 yards. Running the velocity of 2289 fps through a ballistic calculator shows that our bullet would hit 1953 fps around 140 yards when fired from the 16 inch barrel. It needs to be noted that the Brobee223 muzzle velocity is at 5m (16 feet) is 2280 fps. This would be a serious discrepancy to reconcile between the two 20 inch sources as we're looking at though it's only 60 fps difference.
Once we run the 20 inch barrel data from Mr. Mason through, we see a minimum distance around 163 yards. Interestingly, this matches closely to the Brobee223 164 yard data.
The difference between the 20 inch barrel and 16 inch barrel works out to around 23 yards lost at 140 yards vs 163 yards if we use the 1953 fps as a hard cutoff. Again, we are ignoring the discrepancy in the 20 inch barrel data. Ultimately, for a user who never hunts outside of 100 yards, the difference just doesn't matter.
Here's a new question. What if we wanted to run this from a Short Barrel Rifle with say a 13 inch barrel? The difference between the 20 inch and 16 inch for the Hornady is around 58 fps. If we subtract another 58 fps to go from 16 inches to 12 inches, that puts us close to the 13 inch barrel found on say a Rossi Triple Black Pistol in .30-30. It's seems reasonable then to assume around 2231 fps our Rossi lever action pistol. The same calculator shows that the Hornady 160 grain FTX bullet with it's .330 BC crosses the 1953 fps line at 117 yards with an assumed muzzle velocity of 2231 fps. Once again, for a person who hunts at 100 yards and less would be served just fine with a registered SBR with a barrel of .30-30.
At this point, I don't have any additional Estimated Lowest Velocity for any other 16 inch barrel loads as the Husker Hunting data only overlapped with the Brobee223 data on the Hornady LeverEvolution load. No one else has tested expansion past 100 yards that I have been able to find. I have also tried to find testing data from persons using a Thompson Center Contender Super 14 in .30-30 but I haven't found anything just yet.
I personally think the LeverEvolution load does very well but I would very much like to confirm the 16 inch velocities for some of the traditional JSP loads like the Winchester Power Points 170 grain and Federal Power Shok. The Husker Hunting video did test other loads but the Brobee223 video did not though they are seen lined up in the beginning of the video. In other cases, the Brobee223 video has testing for some loads, like the Federal Fusion 170 grain (which I am a fan of), the Remington Core-Lokt 170 grain and the Winchester Power Point 170 grain but the Husker video tested the 150 grain versions. Lee Mason found that all three of those basic loads in both the 150 and 170 grain versions do very well from the 20 inch barrel. I can't imagine that the 16 inch barrel wouldn't be able to achieve the same capabilities at 100 yards and better. I would like to find or test ELV for all 6 of those factory loads.
Since we're here, let's compare the velocities from the other tested loads from Mr. Mason's collection to the Husker data set. We might not know the Estimated Lowest Velocity for the rest but we can at least see the difference in the barrel lengths.
Winchester Power Point 150 gr
20 inch - 2336
16 inch - 2285
Difference - 51 fps
Federal Fusion 150 gr
20 inch - 2392
16 inch - 2256
Difference - 136 fps
Winchester Power Point 150 gr
20 inch - 2227
16 inch - 2211
Difference - 16 fps
Hornady American Whitetail
20 inch - 2321
16 inch - 2297
Difference - 27 fps (Very interesting)
Federal Power Shok 170gr
20 inch - 2086
16 inch - 2083
Difference - 3 fps (That's wild. I would like to note that these were found to be excellent projectiles by Mr. Mason)
Remington Core-Lokt 150 gr
20 inch - 2264
16 inch - 2362
Difference - Something is wrong here as the 16 inch is 68 fps higher. It's possible its a formulation issue but I wonder if something happened here regarding the chronographs. Paul Harrell got 2322 fps from the same load in a 20 inch. It could be the Remington 150 grain just did perfectly in the Marlin 16 inch barrel. The stars aligning sort of thing such as the bullets perfectly matched the bore of the 16 inch rifle compared to the older rifles tested by Mr. Harrell and Mr. Mason. I don't know.
With the noteworthy exception of the Remington load, the posted velocities between the two data sets are pretty close though the Fusion load is disappointing. If the numbers are correct, that could be a formulation thing.
This is a screen shot from the Husker Hunting video on YouTube.
In summary, these rifle caliber 16 inch, even sub-16 inch options, appear to still be useful for hunting applications with a main focus on the woods hunter where a shorter rifle is a prized tool for maneuverability. I've already shown before that the pistol calibers such as .357 and .44 Magnum play very nicely in the Trapper barrels with the rifle hunting loads. I would definitely say these guns would work for defensive use in either backcountry and suburban environments as needed. It should be noted again that unless someone takes the time to properly test each factory loading, these numbers are essentially Fuzzy Math. I'm taking a lot of liberties and playing the "If" game. It's very likely that these loads can go further but I can't prove that just yet and the opposite could be true. My next quest will be to look further into the next caliber of .45-70 but I have a feeling that I just won't be as successful as I was with the .30-30. Maybe someday I can pick up a Marlin SBL and Trapper to compare next to a Rossi Triple Black Pistol and a stack of ammunition to prove the above.
Sources - The gentleman who's data being compiled really need all the thanks as they have put the time and effort needed to test and record the data. A huge Thank You to the gentlemen listed below as I simply stand on the shoulders of men greater than I.
If you care about your Right to Keep and Bear arms as protected under the Second Amendment, you need to take a few moments to do this. Over the last few days, the House Ways and Means committee has been working on amendments to what is supposed to be a massive bill that is to be sent to the President. There is talk about getting silencers and short barrel firearms off of the NFA added to the bill.
You need to email and call your Congressional rep to push on this and get the Hearing Protection Act and SHORT Act off the NFA by getting the amendments to the bill. This is the time. This is your call to action to help get these infringements of the books.
Update: If I am hearing correctly, the HPA made it into the Big Bill and will be sent to the Senate or clearing up. There are two provisions. The first is a complete removal of suppressors from the NFA but there is a backup to reduce the tax from $200 to $0 in-case the Senate wants to play games with your rights. Again, you need to reach out to your Senators. I emailed and called my Congressman but in Georgia, our Senators are not the favorable-to-Rights sort of politicians in regards to this topic. It will fall on deaf ears. Even if you live in a Democrat state, you should call them even to remind them that you exist and you disagree with their prohibitive position.
In 2024, I made my first attempt at handgun hunting and it did not go well. In the article I wrote covered everything, including a plan to correct my failures. The primary steps I need to take are practice and more practice. To practice, you need ammunition and in this economy, .357 Magnum is not cheap. Thankfully, components are relatively inexpensive. I acquired 200 of the 158 grain version of Hornady's XTP along with a bottle of H110.
The first set of handloads started with load data at 16.2 grains and worked up to 16.7 grains increasing by .1 increments. I skipped 16.4 grains resulting in a total of 50 rounds loaded up for velocity testing. After having them sit around for about a month, the only day I had a chance to do anything was a rainy Saturday that I needed to use for mowing the Little Farm. Once I was tired of being soaked on the tractor, I setup my Caldwell chronograph under the tailgate of my 4Runner. After stepping back some distance, I began the testing with my Taurus 66 with 4 inch barrel.
Hornady XTP 158 grain with H110
16.2 - 1151 fps - ES 95
16.3 - 1199 fps - ES 114
16.5 - 1210 fps - ES 49
16.6 - 1226 fps - ES 43
16.7 - 1276 fps - ES 71 (there is an outlier of 1237 that if removed I get 50 fps for the ES which is better)
None of the loads had what I think are excellent extreme spreads but they were worse with the lesser loads. I also had some trouble with getting readings on some of the loads. I don't know if my chronograph is working well or calibrated correctly but I did some additional testing with a factory load I had on hand, the Remington HTP 158 grain SJHP.
Remington HTP 158 grain SJHP
1373 fps - ES 46
Seeing those numbers for the HTP absolutely surprised me. So much so that I am questioning the accuracy of my chronograph. Every test I have seen of the Remington ammunition from a 4 inch barrel is usually in the high 1200 fps with some being low 1300s but to be 70+ fps higher than any other tests concerns me. That said, it does highlight that right now, it might be better for me to zero my red dot for the HTPs and practice with the XTPs.
Looking over the numbers for the XTPs and running the 16.6 and 16.7 grain velocities through a ballistic calculator, I find that even the 16.6 grain load should have enough velocity to make it to the 110 yard mark and still expand and penetrate nicely. The HTP should still be good for around 60 or so yards based on minimum velocity thresholds I use for each. I use 1044 fps for the XTP and around 1190 for the HTP which these are based off of data collected from testing seen around the Internet. If you add some velocity for error, we still have some good useable distance. Based on performance from the 2024 hunt, I think I will limit myself to 50 yards as best I can so either loads should work fine. Additionally, this works nicely as the gun club I have a membership with has a 50 yard range that I can do this sort of thing with.
I had figured that I would be most interested in the higher end of the load data anyway so next steps will be to load up additional strings of both the 16.6 and 16.7 grain versions. I'm thinking around 25 of each. This will allow for additional velocity testing along with some beginning accuracy testing and it uses up the last 50 bullets in the first Hornady box and last of the CCI primer box I have to match. I also have a few of the factory Hornady Custom with the same bullets that I want to run over the chronograph as a baseline. Next time I go out, I will try to test on a sunny day instead of slapping together something.
I've been tinkering with what little powder and primers I have but I have been able to pick up different cast bullets. The only two powders I have are HS-6 and Trail Boss. While neither seem to be especially suited to 38 Special and 357 Magnum, they can be used. The only small primers I have are Remington 5 1/2 "magnum" small pistol primers. They work just fine for what I'm doing with my revolvers and lever action 357 rifle. That said, if I find a good opportunity to buy up some Alliant Unique or similar powder, I will. I'm not sure I'll buy up more primer anytime soon since I just took supply of a new box. On a side note, if you attempt to replicate any of these, you are responsible for your own actions. I am not responsible for your actions since reloading can be risky if you don't know (or even if you do know) what you are doing.
Also, this post will be a rolling update as I find stuff.
New Section: Updates Index
Given that there are semi-regular updates to this post, I figure a better way to track would be good. I will start adding lines to indicate what changes have been added.
July 2024 Updates: 105 grain bullet section powder choice to include WinClean 244 investigation.
July 2024 Part 2: Preliminary WinClean 244 testing for subsonic 105 grain load successful.
July 2024 Part 3: Velocity testing concluded for Win 244 with 3.9 and 4.0 grain loads selected for rifle.
November 2024: Adding Hornady XTP 158 grain bullets with H110
May 2025: Hornady XTP with H110 velocities added with 16.6 and 16.7 grains of H110 selected for additional testing.
200 Grain
My first 357 Mag / 38 Special hand loads were using Trail Boss with a 200 gr hard cast flat nosed bullet with a gas check from Cast Performance. They're a bit expensive but for fun, heavy weight loads for suppressed shooting, I figured they'd work great. Turns out that maybe Trail Boss was not the best choice since they were very inaccurate and also seemed to be tumbling out of my Marlin 1894 CST but I did find that 5.5 grains of HS-6 using a 38 Special case makes for a GREAT plinking round. See the below video of that rifle getting hits on a 6 inch gong at 50 yards. That charge of HS-6 from my 16 barrel Marlin 1894 is chronographing at 1035 FPS. I believe that is impressive though Buffalo Bore can push a 180 gr bullet at 1800 FPS from the same gun so maybe not. That said, for a thumping good time, that load is fairly quiet and fun to shoot.
As you can see, the HS-6 load is a pretty capable load for shorter ranges with some hold over at distance. I haven't tried it for dispatching varmint critters such as armadillos yet but give me time. Sadly, I used up the last of my 200 gr cast rounds on that visit. I do have a Lee 2-cavity mold that I can try to make my own but that's for a later date.
Update Feb 2024: I had ordered 200 more in 2023 but have shot most of them with just over half a box left. The availability of the 200 grain Cast Performance bullets is sporadic so I will start looking at casting with the Lee 200 grain mold.
Lee Precision C358-200 2 Cavity Mold
This is the first mold I ever bought. I figured at the time that I could use .357 Magnum like .300 Blackout by using a very heavy bullet with a small charge. Well, I proved that with the Cast Performance 200 grain bullets so now it's time to start making my own.
The mold is not the same as the CP bullet. The Lee mold has a large lube grove with two very thick driving bands. It does have a gas check but I don't think I'll be using that feature. I may just have someone mill that out so it's a plain base.
The idea is the same. Maybe do a hard cast, 15+ BHN, and load with 5.5 gr of HS-6.
160 Grain
I had ordered a box of 160 grain hollow points that have a very wide cavity from GT Bullets here in Georgia. I tried loading up with varying amounts of HS-6 starting at 6.2 grains and running up to 9.7 grains per the Lyman Cast Bullet book. I forgot to take my chronograph out on the first visit and from my Taurus 66, none seemed to be particularly accurate. I did have to seat them deep and may have damaged the driving bands. I will need to test again. I'm thinking a few test loads for subsonic loading might be a good choice that I need to tinker with since these are MUCH cheaper than those 200 grain pills.
Update: After tinkering with the 160 grain bullets over various amounts of HS-6, the 9 grain range really gets them moving but are very smoky. I had clocked the 9.7 gr loads from a Taurus 66 with 4 inch barrel pushing into the 1300 fps range. I believe that would put these bullets into territory that will cause good expansion of the hollow point design but I haven't tested that yet.
I did find that a lighter load of 6 grains will push these bullets from a 16 inch rifle barrel to around 1200 fps and might could be a good choice for hunting. I don't have ballistic gel blocks but I might try the redneck science way of shooting old milk jugs full of water. It's not ideal but it does something.
Update 2: I tested subsonic versions of the 160 gr cast hollow points from my Marlin 16 inch rifle since the 200 gr cast are expensive. Both the 4.0 grain and 4.5 grain loads of HS-6 were quiet enough. I have not yet run them over a chronograph to see how fast they move. I'll update that later.
Update 3: I ran out of bullets. They were fun. I will need to order more.
Triple Seven Update
Update APR 2024: I found eight of the 160 grain bullets in a box. I have two sitting in dummy loads for testing and opted to make five rounds of Triple Seven in .38 Special. I wanted to test these from the 16 inch Marlin to see how much velocity I get from around 23 grains by volume with the 160 grain. This is the FFFg version of the powder.
The velocities only worked out to 1245 FPS with and ES of 148. I would like to retest these as I was using a volumetric measure. I think next time, I would like to see what one 23 grains by volume actually weighs and load up some using a powder scale to confirm uniformity. I suspect I didn't do a good job of measuring my charges. That said, I have heard one should use FFg instead of FFFg for rifles. At this time, I don't have enough of the 160 grain bullets left so I'll make a point to start ordering or casting my own.
Lyman 358439 HP
Here in Spring of 2023, I think it's time for me to start casting my own bullets. I have a single cavity bullet mold for a 155 grain hollow point from Lyman I bought as part of a self-sufficiency project I was working on. It's the 358439 HP mold. Essentially, it's a lighter-weight "Keith" style bullet with big lube grooves and big drive bands. It looks like it will do well in 38 Special cases given the size of the first drive band being thick. What I want from this pursuit is to have a deer load for my Marlin 1894 or a single shot pistol like a T/C Contender that I can make on the homestead without having to buy commercial products. On a side note, the 358439 may end up being 160 grain so we'll see how that plays out.
Looking over the Lyman Cast Bullet book, we're looking at around 9 to 10 grains of HS-6 for magnum loads but I started doing research for rifle specific data. That's led me to Hodgdon's H110. I knew that Alliant's 2400 powder has been used successfully for 357 for decades and that many people have also used Unique. I'd also seen where people have loaded other cartridges with those powders like .300 Blackout making me think that having a bottle or two of either would be a good universal powder. Continuing down that research hole, I found that people have also used H110 for powerful 357 loads but are also successful in using it for .300 Blackout. You can also make cast bullets for .300 Blackout and might be useful for something like my bolt-action Remington 700 in 300 Blackout. I don't expect it would be optimal but it might be worth having around.
Given that I can order H110 from the same LGS I got the HS-6 from, I think I should put in an order some time this year and start the casting crusade.
Taking a closer look. I believe the mold I have is the same or nearly the same as the GT Bullets 160 grain. If that's the case that would give me a mold to make those bullets. I suspect that the GT Bullets' option is capable at taking a whitetail deer. That is something that I have been wanting to consider.
158 Grain
Hornady 158 grain XTP
The Taurus 66 will be getting setup for deer hunting. Instead of build factory loads from Hornady, I chose to order 200 bullets for testing with H110. The RLDC has the starting data of 15.0 grains but I'll be looking at starting with 16.0 and work up through to 16.7. I'm seeing where some people are pushing into the 16.9 grain range and talk about 17.0 grain with H110. If I can get the load around 1270 to 1300 fps from the 4 inch barrel then I am meeting the current factory load.
Hornady XTP 158 grain with H110 from Taurus 66 4 inch
16.2 - 1151 fps - ES 95
16.3 - 1199 fps - ES 114
16.5 - 1210 fps - ES 49
16.6 - 1226 fps - ES 43
16.7 - 1276 fps - ES 71 (there is an outlier of 1237 that if removed I get 50 fps for the ES which is better)
Update May 2025: The day I did the testing was rainy and I had to slap together my testing setup. I figure I need to get to doing some validation work with the 16.6 and 16.7 grain loads so I will load up around 25 of each and work through those. They will need to be tested on a day that's actually nice to eliminate some variables. Once I settle on one, I would like to see how these do from my other guns like the Marlin CST and the 605 Defender with 3 inch barrel.
125 Grain
Berry's Bullets makes a flat nose jacketed bullet that are somewhat inexpensive at around 22 cents per round after shipping, which is steep. That said, Hodgdon has load data for a cast 125 bullet for Trail Boss starting at 3.5 grains moving up to 5.3 grains and staying subsonic. That information is likely for a revolver but somewhere in there could be a good subsonic rifle load to use up some of the Trail Boss I have. What I've read is that the high levels of powder should use the 357 Mag cases. I found around 4.5 grains in 38 Special cases puts the powder into compression or near compression. I stopped loading at 4.7 grains for the 38 Special cases but then did a 5.6 gr load for 357 Mag cases.
After getting out to shoot, it looks like the 3.5 grains in 38 Special cases is just fine and don't seem to tumble. At around 4.3 grains, they got a little louder than what I want and the 4.7 grains seemed to be supersonic from the 16 inch barrel. I realized that I don't need the maximum charge possible. All I need is an inexpensive load I can whip up for when I want to take someone new to the range with while being quiet. I still need to run them over a chronograph and shoot groups but I think the 3.5 to 4.0 grain load with Trail Boss is a real winner for shortrange subsonic plinking.
When I took those 3.5 and 4.0 grain Trail Boss loads out, I was able to run both over my chronograph. The 3.5 gr load was pushing around 641 FPS with an extreme spread of 66 FPS and the 4.0 grain load around 801 FPS with an ES of 38 FPS. I didn't find much difference in the auditory experience between the two so I think I'll stick with the 3.5 grain version with the 125 grain Berry's Bullet for when I take someone to the range. Trail Boss is fairly inexpensive at around $30 for a 9 oz bottle and the bullets at $0.22 per bullet. If you use your own brass and you get the powder local like from Bass Pro but have primers shipped in like I did, these will cost around $0.35 per round. That's pretty good for these days but I think I can do this cheaper. Maybe around $0.25 per round.
I do have a possible recipe for HS-6 and the Berry's Bullets 125 gr JFN that could make for fun revolver loads but I'm looking for cheap, subsonic plinking loads for now.
105 Cast Subsonic Plinking Loads
Update November 2023: I found a company called Slippery Bullets that makes a 105 gr cast and powder coated truncated flat point for cowboy action shooting. I still have some Trail Boss powder so I figured I'd load up a few. The bullets were 9¢ per round with shipping. Not too bad. They aren't meant for anything serious, just cheap plinking with the suppressed lever action and my revolvers.
The suggested loads I've found are starting at 3 grains of TB with a 38 Special case for Cowboy Action and similar. I started loading at 3 grains and ended at 4.0 grains of Trail Boss by Hodgdon. The velocities I got are below using my Caldwell chronograph. It was 70 degrees out. Georgia is weird. It should be cold in November. I made 11 rounds of each except for the 4.0 grains load. For whatever reason, I had a total of 54 primers left in the 100 count box of Remington 5 1/2 Small Pistol Magnum.
3.0 Grains - 844 FPS Average
3.3 Grains - 905 FPS Average
3.5 Grains - 949 FPS Average
3.7 Grains - 997 FPS Average
4.0 Grains - 1057 FPS Average
After running the loads over the chronograph, I attempted groups at 25 yards to see if any were better. The 3.3 grain loads grouped the best but the 4.0 grain loads started to look good. I didn't have enough after chronographing as I used 8 rounds of the 10.
Running them through the suppressed Marlin 1894 is fun. They hit steel nicely and make a satisfying noise. The point of impact isn't majorly different at short range so these fit nicely into the Ambassador roll the ArgentVaquero project was built for. A 9 oz bottle of Trail Boss will produce around 1,100 rounds of those 3.3 grain loads. That said, the 4.0 grain loads looked like they may have grouped pretty nicely had I not ran out. I may make a few more of the 4.0 grain loads to check accuracy. At 4 grains, a bottle only makes around 980 loads. Reducing that to 3.9 grains should get to around 1,000 rounds. I need to see how these loads do in my revolvers. Currently, this load works out to 19 cents per reload with the CCI primers I now have plus the TB and these cast bullets. I think this is the cheapest subsonic range load I have for any of my centerfire guns.
A 2 lbs bottle of TB at 3.3 grains produces around 4,200 rounds. I have enough for a while but given that a 2 lbs. bottle is $90 I think I'll keep my eye out for a resupply. That would bring the cost per round down to 18 cents. That said, if it continues that I can't get Trail Boss like it has for a while now, HS-6 can be substituted according to Hodgdon's website. A charge of 6.2 to 6.6 grains can push to under 950 fps. That's from a 7.7 inch barrel and will require some experimentation to get keep the load slow.
Update NOV 2023: Trail Boss is not being made at this time per the manufacturer's website. I will need to find a substitute for the TB based 105 gr loads.
Update FEB 2024: I've started loading and will test soon, an HS-6 based load for subsonic use in .38 Special Cases. It starts at 6.2 grains and ends at 6.6 grain so no much testing to do with the 105 grain cast bullets. I did also find a load of Titegroup with I think is going to be a winner if they are quiet. If they are, Titegroup can be had locally for under $30.00 for a 1 pound bottle. If the minimum charge of 4.8 grains works, that's 1458 rounds per 1 lbs bottle. That works out to $0.02 per shot. Given that Trail Boss is dead for now, that would likely be the cheapest I can put together something for the Marlin to spit out at $0.18 per round. In retrospect, I suspect that these will be supersonic as the 200 grain load is 5.5 grains and it's very close to supersonic. Thankfully, I only made 15 rounds total. I also have some loads for the 4.5 grain range.
Update MAR 2024: I got to test some of the HS-6 loads with the 105 grain bullets but my chronograph didn't work due to overcast skies. I didn't get velocity data but I was able to confirm subsonic levels by ear. The loads work but the amount of unburnt powder is incredible. I fired 10 rounds and the barrel looked like I had been shooting black powder. I have heard that HS-6 is better for hotter loads and heavier bullets. These are neither. I only fired 5x of 4.5 grain loads and 5x of the 6.2 grain loads. The 4.5 grain loads sounded great but there was powder coming out of the case on extraction. The 6.2 grain loads were mixed in terms of breaking the sound barrier. 2 of the 5 rounds didn't break the sound barrier on the 39 degree day.
I'm thinking I will whip up some 6.0 and 5.8 grain versions to try but I think the 105 grain bullet with undercharged HS-6 isn't what I want due to how dirty it is. The current best subsonic, cheap plinking round I can put together is the Trail Boss load of 3.3 grains with the Slippery Bullets 105 grain cast bullet. I checked to see how much TB I have left and it should be more than enough to use up the last of my 105 grain bullets.
I'm currently thinking the best approach for long term is using HS-6 and to collecting as much wheel weight lead as I can get and start casting either the 200 grain Lee or the 160 grain Lyman. We shall see.
Update MAR: The 105 grain with HS-6 aren't great. I ran another batch with 6.0 grains of HS-6 and they averaged 1136 FPS. All of them broke the sound barrier. The amount of unburnt powder in the barrel is wild. It's just not what I want. I'm going to abandon the HS-6 with light bullets idea for now and start focusing on casting the 200 grain loads. I found I should have enough left over Trail Boss that I can use all the 105 grain cast bullets to make light plinking .38 Special loads.
Update: JUN 2024: I was doing some keyboard level research on powders as I had Aliant's Unique on my mind. I wanted to know if there are any other powders with a similar burn rate available. The burn rate chart has Unique at 32. Hodgdon has their Universal which is listed at 33 but Winchester has a powder at 31 called 244. I found data for the 105 gr .38 Special for 244 and I can source a bottle from a local place. I had wanted to look at Titegroup for my next purchase but the 244 could be a better buy for the .38 Special loads and other light plinking loads. It also works for .45 Colt. I also found that you could try loading a 000 buck pellet as they are .360 inch diameter. With the right powder they could possibly very cheap if the 000 pellet was cast.
Update JUL 2024: I started asking around to see if WinClean 244 would actually be able to replace Unique but so far I haven't gotten any solid answers. I tried to grab a bottle of Titgroup from Academy but they were out so on the way back from the 4th of July vacation, I stopped at Bass Pro a found a bottle of WinClean 244. Hodgdon's Reloading Data Center shows data for 244 and 105 grain bullets. The starting load is 4.1 grains with a velocity of 622 fps and a max load of 4.4 grains at 789 fps. If the minimum charge of 4.1 grains works well for the subsonic 105 grain loads, that gives around 1700 rounds per bottle. That puts us around 2 cents per charge. What will be the determining factor is how clean the load burns as some of the powders I've tried, look like someone poured dirt down an oily barrel. They just aren't clean at the low charges. I now have access to a proper gun range, so I will be doing testing there. I hope the WinClean 244 is the answer to my cheap subsonic plinking load. Interestingly, there is also data for heavy 357 Magnum using 180 grain bullets and 244 on the Hodgdon RLDC. I'm wondering if I can translate that over to the 200 grain pill.
If everything works out, we're at 2 cents for powder, 7 cents per bullet and 8 cents per primer. That should put us around 17 cents per subsonic, .38 Special load. Even if I do the 9 cents per bullet for the 500 that's still 19 cents per round for cheap plinking. I think that's about as good as I can get it for now. That is until I start casting my own bullets. Stay tuned for the results of the 244 tests.
Update JUL 2024 Part 2: I made up 20 rounds with the 4 different levels of 244, starting from 4.1 grains up to 4.4 grains. I had meant to take my chronograph with me but forgot. We're not really looking for velocity per se but that the load is subsonic. I tested the 4.4 grain loads for sound quality and found that all the loads were hearing safe. The acoustics of the shooting bay made it seem like they were subsonic but I'm not sure they actually were. This was in 90 degree weather and high humidity. I assume they will snap in the winter. I shot through the 4.2 and 4.3 grain loads of 5 each as well and they all seemed to sound pretty good. There was a little fouling left in the barrel and the Dead Air Primal captured a small amount of debris so we aren't getting a super clean burn but it's immediately better than the HS-6 light loads. Based on the performance I saw on Monday with the 4.4 grain loads, I made make a much larger batch of the 4.3 grain loads for additional testing as I suspect that's where we will find a happy medium for the subsonic plinking loads. The chronograph will be the true test.
On my next free day, I took the unused 5 rounds of 4.1 grains with an additional 5 rounds I made up along with 45 rounds of 4.3 grains for testing. I also whipped up 10 rounds of 3.9 grains and 4.0 grains which are below the manuals range. Below are the results of the velocity testing from 18 JUL 2024.
3.9 grains - 1040 fps average
4.0 grains - 1092 fps average
4.1 grains - 1165 fps average
4.3 grains - 1216 fps average
All loads were hearing safe, however, all of the 3.9 and 4.0 gr loads were actually subsonic during the 70 something degree weather and high humidity. That said only a few of the nominal range loads were subsonic.
15 yard shots from the Marlin
The short range accuracy from the Marlin 1894 CST is just fine. At 15 yards, they are just left of the zero I currently have. This is perfect. From the context of an indoor shooting range with a target between 15 and 25 yards, the bullet will impact close to the center of the target. Essentially, I will be able to take this load to a range with a new shooter and have a very similar point of impact without adjusting my field ammunition's 100 yard zero. With nearly zero recoil and very low noise the Winchester 244 based .38 Special absolutely fills the Ambassador roll the Marlin 1894 CST fits into. They also shoot pretty well from my Taurus 66 so as a practice load, I like these.
At this point, the only things I can think to test is the 25 yard accuracy of the 3.9 and 4.0 grain loads from the Marlin and Taurus 66 and if either of these loads break the sound barrier during the coldest days during winter. If everything checks works out well, then I think these will work very nicely for what I want. If the lower charge weights aren't great in the revolver, I can still make up 4.3 grain loads for cheap practice rounds.
Current Winners
The 2024 Cheap Plinking Load winner is the 105 grain powder coated bullet with a 3.9 or 4.0 grain charge of Winchester 244 for a theoretical cost of 17 cents per round. This replaces the older 2023 winner using Trail Boss which is not currently available for sale. 244 can be had from various brick and mortar stores with a Big Box type place near me having it without HAZMAT fees. See the 2023 winner for more details.
The 2023 Cheap Plinking Load is the 105 cast bullets from Slippery Bullets. A 500 count box for $35 but are $9.50 to ship. This puts us at 9 cents per round. The 4000 count box is the same in shipping for some reason which puts us at a nice 7 cents per round. If I can find a good source of 2 pounds of Trail Boss and primers for the price I got recently around $7 for 100, we're looking at somewhere around 17 cents per round. That's the cheapest load I can currently make up that does what I want for a subsonic round for suppressor use.
The Cast Performance 200 grain gas checked bullet with 5.5 grains of HS-6 is my pet plinking load. They have lots of thump and are subsonic. The only downside is I can't get a reliable supply of the bullets and are regularly out of stock. They are also somewhat expensive at $32 a box of 100 when they are in stock. Sadly, I only have a half a box left. The plus side is that I have the Lee 200 grain 2 cavity mold. I don't know that these bullets are the same as that mold is but it would be great if they were.
It seems that my first 2 winners here are hindered by availability problems so I will endeavor to find loads that work so having the 2024 update using Winchester 244 is a huge win.
The Barry's Bullets 125 grain bullet and the 244 charges could also work nicely if you have an ample supply of them already.
Other Bullet Options
I also remembered that there's a company called Oregon Trail with their Laser-Cast bullets. I use their 200 gr lead for my 45 Colt rounds. They have a cast 125 gr that's $38 for a box of 500 but it's $20 for shipping so make sure you get a bunch. It is WAY cheaper than the Berry's. I'll be looking at buying a box of those real soon since I'm just about out of the Berry's. I think I can get this down to closer to $0.22 per round if I play my cards right.
Bayou Bullets seems to also have cheap options for cast, powder coated bullets. They have a 95 grain round nose that's $78 for a 1000. 3 grains of Trail Boss could make them potentially subsonic. That's also a tiny amount of powder making that load a very cheap option.
Powder and Primer Considerations
Getting powder is tricky business these days. To ship both, there is an automatic $25 HAZMAT fee on top of the normal shipping and handling. It's best to find a local shop that can get powders and primers delivered to them and you go pick it up. The cost of both plus the extra fees is what is driving up the cost of reloading.
In an update, I was able to pick up from HS-6 from an LGS without HAZMAT fee which is great!
I'll keep updating this post as I tinker around with loads but so far, I'm still happy with the original load of 5.5 grains of HS-6 under the 200 grain gas checked cast bullet for plinking use but I like chasing the cheap loads.
Update NOV 2023: H110 has been sourced from a location I didn't know had powders. I expect to use the H110 for full power 357 Mag loads with a likely focus on Hornady XTP bullets. I also found out that the reason we can't get Trail Boss is because it's made in Australia and apparently Thales stopped producing pending some research project. The ADI website hasn't had an update since DEC 2021 saying the same thing about Trail Boss. Looks like I will need to start working out that HS-6 load for the 105 grain sub sonic
Resources
The below links have provided huge amounts of information but are not the only things I've used. I read old articles written by folks such as Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton themselves to piece information together.
