In my previous article on the CZ 457 Scout, I claimed that the Scout was the Perfect Plinker. I've probably used that term a little too loosely over the years but at the time, I think I was onto something. Since then, I've picked up a few more rifles such as the Chiappa LA322 and finished the build out of the Ruger 10/22. I still stand by my statement of the rifle being suppressed and manually operated. Until the LA322 build is complete, the CZ 457 Scout is probably the closest to the Perfect Plinker as I can get for now. I will say this, if you like bolt actions more than you like lever actions or semi-autos, I think the CZ 457 Scout is just for you. Let me show you some of the updates that I've made over the last 5 years.
The first big change from the September 2019 article is that I now have a .22 specific silencer to use on the 1/2x28 threads. The El Camino from Q is lightweight and user serviceable and seems good at it's job. I don't have any other .22 silencers or tools to meter and quantify my experience but so far, everything is going well. Its the only .22 suppressor I have so I gets used on many different guns. Someday, I'll own several more and will be able to dedicate a can to various rifles.
At 4 oz, the Q El Camino is light on weight but big on funny names. That's a theme with Q.
I also added a sling to the rifle as I think all long guns need a sling. Those two things by themselves are about as much as I really need but I did add one more leather product. A cartridge cuff. The leather cartridge cuff is an inexpensive unit that holds 16 rounds of .22 LR in loops. To accommodate the round count, the cuff is rather long and includes rubber shims or spacers. In this instance, I needed all 4 spacers as the short stock leaves too much play in the cuff. Ultimately, this does make the rifle fit me better but once children become apart of my life, I can take off the cuff as needed. We're a few years away before the first one reaches an appropriate age for this firearm.
I usually have the cuff filled with Winchester 36 grain HP for small game as needed.
Originally, I had intended to just use the original iron sights but due to an interesting situation, I was able to purchase an ADE pistol red dot from an Amazon bin store. I got the dot for $4. Additionally, I picked up a picatinny to dovetail adapter and an inexpensive mount and installed on the Scout. I zeroed for 25 yards to keep it simple and quiet using the CCI Standard Velocity.
The dot sits a little more proud than I like.
I know that the red dot conflicts with the open sights part of the concept but when I found out the red dot was the RMSc footprint and not the Doctor/Noblex footprint, I found I wasn't going to be able to use it on anything else at the moment as all my mounts are the Doctor/Noblex pattern. So far, I haven't found a dedicated 11mm dovetail to RMSc mount to replace the current setup with. This works for now.
I will always prefer a dedicated mount but sometimes nothing exists. You have to make one or make due.
That rounds up all the changes I've made since the September 2019 article. All together, the rifle is still very lightweight and easy to carry. As a matter of fact, the rifle with everything is just under 6.5 pounds. What I love about it is that it isn't super long and is lots of fun to shoot. When I carry this rifle, it makes me want to put together a super lightweight hunting rifle like a Rossi R92.
Review
Over the last 5 years, I haven't found much that I am unhappy with regarding the CZ 457 Scout. In fact, I have zero complaints about this rifle. It's just simply a great rifle. I have not yet made use of the modularity of the rifle such as the easy to swap barrels or easy to replace stock. I've just been happy with it in both stock and accessorized versions.
The 10 round magazines stick out a bit and can get hung up while carrying. I suggest the 5 round for field use.
The wood is of good quality and seems to have good fitment to the receiver. I might like a little texture on the wrist if that was an option. The iron sights are easy to use though a little chunky. They remind me more of pistol sights than rifle sights. The front sight tunnel is open on the top to let light in, which I appreciate. The chunky rear sight appears to be adjustable for windage but I haven't felt the need to correct them as it seems regulated well enough.
At first, when I got the rifle and found that it only had a single shot sled, instead of a magazine, I was a little annoyed. That said, I have found that when I'm plinking way, I don't always want to reload magazines and using the sled keeps things moving. It may be slow but that's fine for casual. If I want to hunt or crank out a few rounds, I can load the 5 or 10 round magazines I have for the rifle. One a side note, there is a very long 25 round magazine that would be fun to get ahold of. The magazines are all single stack so they tend to get long.
I have put a large but unknown number of rounds through this rifle and have had no issues. It's a bolt action so there isn't any ammunition related sensitivities that I need to worry about. The magazines feed just fine when I want to use them. The rifle has been setup for various situations before the current setup. At one point, I had a scope on it for my oldest niece to go squirrel hunting. That was short lived. The current setup just lends itself better to casual plinking a short range field use.
All in all, this rifle has turned out to be simply fantastic. The current setup is easy to understand and is very user friendly. With a good silencer and ammo, the rifle is quiet. If you are looking for a .22 LR rifle for light use or for training kids on, I would recommend considering one for your inventory.
In January 2024, Chiappa very quietly posted on their website a new version of their LA322 lever action 22 LR rifle. I only found out about it because I happened along and noticed it. This was a takedown carbine that was advertised as having a 1/2x28 threaded 18.5 inch barrel. The only thing it was missing was open sighs. I suppose it was intended to have a scope or red dot. Minus the missing sights, the rifle looks exactly the way I've been wanting. Wood stocks, blued steel and a threaded barrel for a silencer. I go over this concept a bit in my article called My Dream Plinker. My tastes have definitely changed as I thought my CZ 457 Scout was the Perfect Plinker but my love of lever action rifles has reigned king. I kept an eye out to see when the new version of the LA322 would be available. As it turns out, they started shipping fairly quickly and many options for under $350. I jumped on one.
The LA322 threaded from the factory is not the fully realized Dream Plinker or Perfect Plinker. There are a few missing things such as the 12 inch barrel and open sights. Those are things that can be fixed as needed. Chiappa does have part numbers for replacement parts on their website but after further digging and looking over parts diagrams, adding a front sight will be tricky.
Problems
This project ran into several problems that I attempted to work through. Some of them are such a problem that I've had to rethink the total project and is sort of stuck in limbo.
The first issue I wanted to address was the lack of open sights. It does have the usual dovetail rail on the receiver for a scope. On rifles such as the Henry 22, the front barrel band also has the front sight integrated. The LA322 is similar, however, there is also a cap that covers the muzzle that is molded into the component. If you look at the muzzle of the Kodiak Cub model, you'll have an easier time seeing what I am talking about. The front sight, barrel band and muzzle cap are all cast as one metal piece. I was originally hoping that I could modify the regular barrel band and add a Skinner rear sight.
Muzzle cap of the Kodiak Cup. The metal parts are stainless or silver finished but the cap is cast metal.
The parts diagram of the rifle shows that the barrel is stepped down in diameter and that the front sight cap slides over the muzzle. The barrel on the threaded model doesn't appear to have that step-down and a different band is used. The replacement front sight will need to be modified to work correctly by cutting off the cap at the point where the cap meets the band and remove material from under the sight base to let the barrel slide into the ring. I needed to order parts number 39 and 40 from Chiappa then make the needed changes. It's not as simple as I was hoping this would be. Thankfully, I was able to get both the front sight and the tunnel. Part number 39 was modified but an expected issue came up that I will explain later on.
Front sight from the parts diagram
The rear sight on the regular LA322 is a traditional buckhorn sight dovetailed into the barrel. This version of the rifle doesn't have that dovetail cut in the barrel. It does have the usual 11mm or 3/8 inch rail on the receiver. That's perfect as I had planned on using a Skinner rear aperture sight like I have on the Henry. The first major snag I ran into, however, is that the receiver is rounded on the top. The Skinner Rimfire sight uses a flat base. It won't fit. After doing additional research, I later found that the William WGRS-54 sight should work for what I have in mind but I would have to order more parts.
On to the second issue. For the most part, there is a very logical reason that having a threaded barrel on a lever action .22 LR rifle with a full length magazine isn't usually a thing. Most .22 silencers measure approximately 1 inch in diameter. That means that the lower rear portion of the silencer body is obstructing the magazine tube. To load one of these rifles, you remove the tube by rotating the knob to unlock the inner part. Then you pull the tube toward the muzzle and load cartridges, nose-forward into the cartridge shaped slot on the magazine tube body.
The extended barrel band included with the rifle allows the inner part to clear the silencer.
If a silencer is threaded on, the tube will not likely clear the silencer. You have to remove the silencer from the barrel, remove the tube, load the magazine, reinsert the tube and screw on the silencer. That's a cumbersome way to plink. I attempted to confirm that the tube would not clear the silencer the day I took home the rifle. I did find something very interesting though. My rifle's thread pitch was not 1/2x28 as advertised. I suspected the pitch was 1/2x20, the usual European pattern and these are Italian made guns. I reached out to Chiappa to confirm. They confirmed that a number of these rifles were shipped with European spec barrels. They offered to RMA the rifle and provided a shipping label to replace the barrel. It took a few months to get the rifle back.
Once in hand, I was pleasantly surprised to find that they had corrected this issue but I did run into a new problem. The threaded section is very long. In fact, it's so long that the silencer doesn't screw down far enough to seat on the shoulder. Thankfully, Q includes a spacer they said would be needed for this sort of issue. I also found Chiappa had used a barrel band that was extended enough to push the magazine tube below the silencer body. I can remove the tube without removing the silencer. For me to continue to pursue the build with open sights, I would have to use the shorter, modified barrel band. This now means that the magazine tube and silencer body would interfere with each other as stated above.
There are a few ways to bypass this issue but the best solution is to use a narrow diameter silencer. The smallest diameter rimfire silencer I know of is AB Suppressor's Little Bird. I know of at least one person who did a similar build with a Henry Silver Boy (See pnw_pew on Instagram) and the Little Bird. Since I don't own a Little Bird, I need another solution.
Enter Griffin Armament. Griffin Armament makes a nifty quick detach system called CAM-LOK. It's almost like an interrupted thread system that allows for a fast on and off removal of a silencer. Normally, the system is for recoil operated pistols to use a suppressor and have a quick attach and detach system.
For example, I have a CAM-LOK piston in my Dead Air booster assembly. I can put that booster into my Primal or Wolfman. I have a few semi-auto pistols in different calibers that have the CAM-LOK muzzle adapters. I can take the Primal with the piston and quick attach it to a 9mm pistol with an adapter and fire, then move the silencer to my .45 ACP pistol with adapter. This occurs without issue and no changes to the piston are needed. They also have a universal direct thread adapter in 1/2x28. That adapter was the key to making this whole build easier to work with given the shorter barrel band.
By using that adapter on my Q El Camino, I would have been able to attach and remove the silencer for loading quickly and easily. Together, the system is about $140 which is a little more expensive than the Gemtech 4 lug system but I already had an extra CAM-LOK adapter in 1/2x28 from another gun I no longer have. I just needed the universal adapter for the silencer side of the system which is $79 on their website. With the Griffin Armament CAM-LOK system, I can remove and attach the silencer for easy loading. That's one problem solved.
At least that's what I thought.
Because the Skinner sight doesn't fit the receiver and I don't have the Williams sight and the front barrel band doesn't slide on just yet and needs additional milling to clean up, I'm not able to pursue the open sights part of this build at the moment.
Additionally. if I do use the sighted front band, I will absolutely loose the convivence of keeping the silencer attached for reloading. I'm becoming less interested in this idea the more I use the rifle. At this point, the CAM-LOK idea is pretty much out of the running.
After running into these issues during the assembly phase of the project, I just wanted to run the gun and see how it would be. I just wanted to enjoy my new rifle. I screwed the silencer onto the rifle with the spacer, installed the beautiful Mason Leather stock cuff on the rifle and clipped on the Uncle Mike's magazine tube sling stud. I will need to install the other sling stud later on. I still needed a sighting system.
The Mason Leather 22 stock cuff that's just beautiful. This holds a 50 round box of 22 LR.
How Is It?
I borrowed an ADE Spike 4 MOA red dot from my CZ457 Scout and modified the picatinny to dovetail adapter to fit the round receiver. It was a very sloppy job but it works for the time being. I zeroed the rifle for 36 yards.
My initial impressions shooting this rifle is that there is nothing like a lever action .22 LR with a tube full of CCI Standard Velocity and a good silencer attached. Even in just the stock configuration without my fully realized Dream Plinker, the LA322 with a red dot and silencer is fantastically fun to shoot. Honestly, from just the short time I've been able to enjoy the rifle, I recommend it but with caveats.
I like that it looks like a Marlin 39A in passing but internally it is anything but a Marlin.
What I don't like is how cheap the finish feels. It's nice looking but it's not a steel receiver that's finely finished and blued, like a Marlin 39A. Then again, you aren't paying for that and the street price is sure nice. It's very accessible.
The action isn't gritty or rough, it's smooth but it's not light like my Henry is as if there is friction slowing it down. I suppose that will take time to loosen up with use. The manual does recommend a 100 to 150 round break in period.
Future
I'm not sure that I will able to realize this project to it's fullest for a while but I will continue to think it over. The Perfect Plinker concept would need for me to trim down the barrel to 12 inches or so. That will take a lot of work as the magazine needs shortened as well. It also requires the $200 NFA tax and registration. I'm torn on doing the paperwork, the Form 1, to make that happen. I don't like registrations and I don't like paying taxes on Constitutional rights. Many .22 LR loads don't actually need a barrel length in excess of 12 inches, something I go over in another article you can read about shorter barrels. I would also need to engrave the receiver per certain rules. Incidentally, the modified barrel band couldn't be used anyway as a 12 inch barrel would shorter than there is room for. That brings me to the next part of this.
The open sights problem has presented me with something to think over given that my initial idea didn't work. Should I actually choose to pursue the open sights again, the Williams WGRS-54 sight will need to be tested. I had hoped that the barrel band modification would work but after additional consideration, milling a dovetail into the front of the barrel and installing a more traditional gold bead sight seems to be the better idea. This would allow me to keep the stock barrel band and allow the tube to clear the silencer. I do just happen to have an extra Marbles front sight from the Winchester restoration project. I will inquire with my trusted locals to see if we can mill a dovetail into the barrel. That said, I think that I will wait until I decide to commit to shortening the barrel. It doesn't make much sense to run out and modify the barrel then have to make the same dovetail cut again.
Summary
I never expected that a company would actually make a carbine length lever action .22 LR rifle with a threaded barrel but I am sure glad that Chiappa did it. The bonus with the LA322 is two fold. First, it looks like a Marlin 39A which is a bucket list or "Someday Gun" for me. The second bonus is that this LA322 is a takedown model. That means I can undo the side screw to disassemble the rifle for easy transport and cleaning.
The downsides of the LA322 are the limitations on rimfire accessories due to the rounded receiver. If you are trying to use a scope, make sure that your rings will work. Note that the rifle was intended for that particular setup. You will also need to be selective about what mounts you are using if you plan on using anything picatinny-based. The cheap internal adapters from Amazon will require heavy modification and I don't recommend this method at all as it will scratch up your new receiver's finish. Something that I didn't know about until after the fact is the UTG RDM-20 dovetail mount. These are a Docter footprint, low profile dovetail mount (part number is RDM-20XSD) that are designed for this sort of application though it does sit higher than what I would like. I absolutely wish I had known about this part before I started modifying the adapter. Lesson learned.
Additionally, the takedown system is currently tight but the tab that slots into the receiver has a little vertical play in it when you apply pressure to the two halves of the rifle. It isn't an issue now but I will be keeping an eye on it.
If you want something similar to this but are on a tight budget, Rossi makes a version of their Rio Bravo called the Tactical. It has a 16 inch threaded barrel and comes with a picatinny rail section for a red dot or scope. It also has sling studs. I wouldn't say that the Chiappa is expensive by any means but the Rossi is just a bit cheaper. The Rio Bravo also doesn't look as nice with the plastic furniture. The Henry Frontier Threaded is still the best turnkey solution for this sort of thing as it has everything needed out of the box. It'll probably the quietest as well with that long barrel. I just don't want that long of a barrel and is about $125+ more in street price. I really do like the carbine length barrels.
So is the LA322 the Perfect Plinker? I think it's pretty darn close. It's inexpensive, looks nice and can be configured with the best of accessories with a little bit of research and effort. Maybe you like a bolt-action or a semi-auto but I like a lever action and so far, the LA322 is pushing all the right buttons. Stay tuned for more Chippa LA322 content.
For those of you who have not yet heard, Thompson Center, the makers of the single shot pistols and numerous muzzleloaders, are returning. In an interview with Gregg Ritz, conducted by Ethan Yazel of "I Love Muzzleloading," Mr. Ritz laid out the roadmap they are working toward to bring products back. The first thing they expect to have return in the Encore platform. Mr. Ritz is pushing to have the single-shot platform available around the October timeline. This is a great as this should put the platform back into hunter's hands for the 2024 deer season. They also expect that next year, they will have some type of muzzleloading platform. They seem to be focused on bringing an Encore based option out first. This makes sense as it can be a simple barrel swap and noted that it would likely be based on the Federal FireStick system for compatibility reasons. They also hinted at hoping to have a Hawken out in 2026 but we shall see what they are able to swing.
They did specify that as they bring out legacy products like the Contender and Encore, they are pushing for backwards compatibility to maintain the interchangeability with older guns. That's a huge deal as the main feature of those platforms is the simple barrel swap system. In fact, it's the reason I want a Contender. I have some ideas and I very much want to do some handgun hunting.
In my quest to look for a .45 Colt handload that I can use for target shooting with my Pietta 1873 SA with a 4 3/4 inch barrel, I would like to keep track of what I come up with. All of the loads are trying to stay within or close to the 14,000 PSI standard given that this revolver is a SAA clone and is not expected to survive loads that one would put through a Ruger Blackhawk or Winchester 92. A Ruger Blackhawk or a Rossi R92 are not in my possession so if you are wondering why I don't use that, that's why. The Pietta is what I have for now so that's what we're starting with.
The project starts with gauging the chamber throats of the Pietta for uniformity. A lack of uniformity will negatively impact accuracy as each chamber being different may widen the group. I've heard of some guns shooting 5 inch groups being reduced to 1 inch groups with corrections to the chamber throats. I ordered three pin gauges starting at 0.451 to 0.453 inch to test the Pietta's chamber throats. We're looking for 0.4525 inch for cast bullets meaning the 0.452 pin should pass but the 0.453 pin should not. That's exactly what ended up being the case. A pleasant surprise from an inexpensive revolver. Now that the gun checks out, let's look at the loads.
The Pietta 1873 SA in .45 Colt, AKA the Cabela's Special.
As usual, if you try to duplicate these loads, that's on you and I am NOT responsible for your actions.
I am using data found here.
https://hodgdonreloading.com/rldc/
I'm starting with GT Bullet's 225 grain cast lead semi wad cutters sized to .452 inch but I will also try to tinker with the Laser Cast 200 gr .452 RNFP I have for target. They have a 15 BHN which is too hard for use in hunting at these velocities. I will only use them for target shooting. I've ordered 200 of the bullets are waiting for them to be cast, shipped and delivered. There is currently a 21 week backorder so it will be a while before I can get started.
Unlike the .357 Magnum post, I will be focusing on powder selection instead of trying a bunch of different bullets. I'll be starting with HS-6 because I have close to 2 lbs of it at this time but if I can't get a satisfactory load from it, then I will move on to other powders. I am very interested in CFE Pistol as the Hodgdon reloading data shows the highest velocities. I have some alternative powders I would like to look at in the future depending on local availability such as Universal, 2400 or Unique. Universal actually has the highest velocity data according to the Hodgdon website but I can't get it easily without online ordering. I don't want to pay HAZMAT fees if I don't have to.
Update Feb 2024: The below data is specific to keeping the chamber pressures below 14,000 PSI. However, there is speculation that the newer SAA clones can handle as much as 23,000 PSI. I'm not trying to Elmer Keith my gun but there's only one way to know. Well, two or more actually, but I don't have QuickLoad. That's $155 software package that gives you probable pressure curves. There are other calculators but PMAX doesn't have HS-6.
Update 2 Feb 2024: Looking at the math, the 225 grain bullets I ordered are likely to show up around June. I ordered a bullet mold from MP Molds. It's a 4 cavity hollow point version of the H&G #68 mold from a long time ago. Apparently, that mold was great for target loads which fits right in line with what I'm trying to do here. It's also a hollow point mold so I can use it for other things latter on. These are 185 grain bullets according to the site but we'll need to see what weight they actually cast at. I'm seeing some data that says the bullets will drop out closer to 195 grain. I'll start adding this bullet to the list when I have loading data. Apparently, Hodgdon only has 1 load for 185 grain bullets for .45 Colt and that's using Accurate Number 5. I can get #5 from Bas Pro if needed. I'll have to check my Lyman book for more but what I am able to find in forums has that this bullet will do nicely for what I have in mind. That bullet should also work for my .45 ACP guns as needed. Seems like a good choice. Looking further, Hodgdon does have a load for a 180 grain bullet using CFE Pistol which just reinforces the notion I should get a bottle. I pulled several points of data for the 180 grain bullet and each are noted as such.
Update 3 FEB 2024: I loaded up some 200 grain cast using both HS-6 and Triple Seven. I wanted to see if 777 was usable in this instance. It turns out to have done pretty well with the 200 grain. I also now have a 185 grain mold from MP Molds to make hollow points. During the testing, the Pietta show very low. I don't know that I could file enough front sight to fix how low the drop is at 25 yards. I need to do more testing but I didn't hit the paper target once when shooting over the chronograph and aiming directly at the paper IDPA target. A different firearm is likely needed.
Update 4 JUL 2024: The GT Bullets 225 grain hollow points are in. I also have a bottle of WinClean 244. Instead of Titegroup (for now) I will be testing with the Winchester 244.
Update AUG 2024: After spending some time thinking about it, I wanted to see about using .45 Colt for hunting from a revolver. I know I can get enough velocity from a rifle but from a revolver, what sort of velocity would I need to load something such as a 250 gr XTP and be able to hit a deer at 100 yards and still get that bullet to expand. A video I watched had an XTP hitting water jugs around 1188 fps at the target and getting great expansion. I don't know if those XTP bullets will still expand at 1000 fps but let's pretend that they do. After fiddling around with a ballistic calculator, I would need the cartridge to push that XTP at a minimum velocity of 1220 fps. Mr Joey Hunt reports the Lyman Reloader book has 26.5 gr of H110 could do 1400 from a Ruger Blackhawk but from the 5.5 inch barrel I had been interested in only got around 1150 fps. I have ordered a book of my own to see what the range would be and if I can get to 1220 fps. I do have a bottle of H110. That's likely going to be a tall order with lots of recoil. It's got me thinking about .41 Magnum again.
Triple Seven (777)
Triple Seven is a black powder substitute and needs to be treated like BP. Be extra careful.
200 grain RNFP from Oregon Trail (Target Only) - I have a bunch of these from before
Staring data: 35 grains by volume
Ending Data: 40 grains by volume (this is not a full case load and has mild compression)
Velocities:
35 grain - 946 FPS Avg - ES 34 FPS
40 grain - 999 FPR Avg - ES 21 FPS (There was one reading that was much lower than the rest so I tossed it)
Shot Groups: No group data at this time as I didn't have enough loads to test velocity and accuracy. The Pietta's point of impact is very low and very left even from a rested position.
Notes: The Triple Seven loads with these bullets were fun. They were very smoky and the plume as entertaining. The 40 grain by volume load was very close to the 1000 FPS I'm looking for and I would bet that a 185 grain bullet would hit that. I don't know how these would do for hunting but I know how to find out.
WinClean 244
While I was looking for alternatives for Unique for bunnyfart/light loads, the burn chart had Universal and Winchester or WinClean 244. I didn't see Universal around but did find 244 at Bass Pro. I got a bottle on the way back from our 4th of July vacation. It was originally intended for the 105 grain 38 Special subsonic rounds for my Marlin CST but there are all the common pistol calibers including magnums. I figured I would try it out in .45 Colt to see if the SAA would fair any better.
225 grain LSWC
Staring data: 5.2 grains (738 fps)
Ending Data: 7.2 grains (972 fps)
Velocities:
Shot Groups:
185 grain Cast from an MP Molds #10112 (Data is for a 180 grain)
Staring data: 6.8 grains (914 fps)
Ending Data: 9.1 grains (9.1 fps)
Velocities:
Shot Groups:
HS-6
200 grain RNFP from Oregon Trail (Target Only) - I have a bunch of these from before
I bypassed the lowest starting level and went straight to 12.0 grains and making 5 rounds each level for testing. I increased grain weight by .2 grains for each group.
Staring Data: 11.7 grains
Ending Data: 13.0 grains
Velocities:
12.0 gr - 905 FPS Avg - ES 30 FPS
12.2 gr - 927 FPS Avg - ES 142 FPS
12.4 gr - 942 FPS Avg - ES 61 FPS
12.6 gr - 952 FPS Avg - ES 57 FPS
12.8 gr - 1002 FPS Avg - ES 43 FPS
13.0 gr - 1007 FPS Avg - ES 80 FPS
Shot Groups: No group data at this time as I didn't have enough loads to test velocity and accuracy.
Notes: Some of extreme spreads where okay and others not so great. I have heard that HS-6 prefers a near max load and that 12.8 did pretty okay. I may stick with that one. I'd like to see how the 185 grain cast loads do.
225 grain LSWC
Staring data: 7.0 grains (684 fps)
Ending Data: 9.3 grains (919 fps)
Velocities: (When I have it, I'll update)
Shot Groups:
185 grain Cast from an MP Molds #10112
All the data I have for this is from forums and most everyone is using Unique. I'm having to extrapolate data from my Lyman book and from Hodgdon's website. The Lyman book's data for a 200 grain bullet is 11.2 grains of HS-6. The book tends to step down in powder charge dropping to 10.5 grains for max charge with a 250 grain bullet. I suspect that operating in the same charge range with the lighter bullet than the 200 grain load will work. I will start with the Lyman Cast Handbook data for a 200 grain bullet and end with the Hodgdon data. I suspect that those 13 grain charges are going to be pretty fast moving. I'm currently looking for 1000 fps from the 4 5/8 inch barrel.
Staring data: 11.2 grains
Ending Data: 13.0 grains
Velocities:
Shot Groups:
CFE Pistol
CFE Pistol is highly interesting as the Hodgdon website shows the highest velocities for .45 Colt with a 225 grain. Not that we are using it. I also found load data for .38 Special and 105 gr bullets meaning I can load subsonic plinking loads for the Marlin 1894 but I think this would specialize for 45 Colt.
225 grain LSWC
Staring data: 6.4 grains
Ending Data: 8.0 grains
Velocities:
Shot Groups:
185 grain Cast from an MP Molds #10112 (Data is for a 180 grain)
Staring data: 8.5 grains
Ending Data: 10.2 grains
Velocities:
Shot Groups:
Titegroup
225 grain LSWC
Staring data: 4.4 grains
Ending Data: 6.0 grains
Velocities:
Shot Groups:
185 grain Cast from an MP Molds #10112 (Data is for a 180 grain)
Staring data: 6.0 grains
Ending Data: 6.9 grains
Velocities:
Shot Groups:
HP-38
225 grain LSWC
Starting Data: 5.1 grains
Ending Data: 6.9 grains
Velocities:
Shot Groups:
185 grain Cast from an MP Molds #10112 (Data is for a 180 grain)
I've been tinkering with what little powder and primers I have but I have been able to pick up different cast bullets. The only two powders I have are HS-6 and Trail Boss. While neither seem to be especially suited to 38 Special and 357 Magnum, they can be used. The only small primers I have are Remington 5 1/2 "magnum" small pistol primers. They work just fine for what I'm doing with my revolvers and lever action 357 rifle. That said, if I find a good opportunity to buy up some Alliant Unique or similar powder, I will. I'm not sure I'll buy up more primer anytime soon since I just took supply of a new box. On a side note, if you attempt to replicate any of these, you are responsible for your own actions. I am not responsible for your actions since reloading can be risky if you don't know (or even if you do know) what you are doing.
Also, this post will be a rolling update as I find stuff.
New Section: Updates Index
Given that there are semi-regular updates to this post, I figure a better way to track would be good. I will start adding lines to indicate what changes have been added.
July 2024 Updates: 105 grain bullet section powder choice to include WinClean 244 investigation.
July 2024 Part 2: Preliminary WinClean 244 testing for subsonic 105 grain load successful.
July 2024 Part 3: Velocity testing concluded for Win 244 with 3.9 and 4.0 grain loads selected for rifle.
200 Grain
My first 357 Mag / 38 Special hand loads were using Trail Boss with a 200 gr hard cast flat nosed bullet with a gas check from Cast Performance. They're a bit expensive but for fun, heavy weight loads for suppressed shooting, I figured they'd work great. Turns out that maybe Trail Boss was not the best choice since they were very inaccurate and also seemed to be tumbling out of my Marlin 1894 CST but I did find that 5.5 grains of HS-6 using a 38 Special case makes for a GREAT plinking round. See the below video of that rifle getting hits on a 6 inch gong at 50 yards. That charge of HS-6 from my 16 barrel Marlin 1894 is chronographing at 1035 FPS. I believe that is impressive though Buffalo Bore can push a 180 gr bullet at 1800 FPS from the same gun so maybe not. That said, for a thumping good time, that load is fairly quiet and fun to shoot.
As you can see, the HS-6 load is a pretty capable load for shorter ranges with some hold over at distance. I haven't tried it for dispatching varmint critters such as armadillos yet but give me time. Sadly, I used up the last of my 200 gr cast rounds on that visit. I do have a Lee 2-cavity mold that I can try to make my own but that's for a later date.
Update Feb 2024: I had ordered 200 more in 2023 but have shot most of them with just over half a box left. The availability of the 200 grain Cast Performance bullets is sporadic so I will start looking at casting with the Lee 200 grain mold.
Lee Precision C358-200 2 Cavity Mold
This is the first mold I ever bought. I figured at the time that I could use .357 Magnum like .300 Blackout by using a very heavy bullet with a small charge. Well, I proved that with the Cast Performance 200 grain bullets so now it's time to start making my own.
The mold is not the same as the CP bullet. The Lee mold has a large lube grove with two very thick driving bands. It does have a gas check but I don't think I'll be using that feature. I may just have someone mill that out so it's a plain base.
The idea is the same. Maybe do a hard cast, 15+ BHN, and load with 5.5 gr of HS-6.
160 Grain
I had ordered a box of 160 grain hollow points that have a very wide cavity from GT Bullets here in Georgia. I tried loading up with varying amounts of HS-6 starting at 6.2 grains and running up to 9.7 grains per the Lyman Cast Bullet book. I forgot to take my chronograph out on the first visit and from my Taurus 66, none seemed to be particularly accurate. I did have to seat them deep and may have damaged the driving bands. I will need to test again. I'm thinking a few test loads for subsonic loading might be a good choice that I need to tinker with since these are MUCH cheaper than those 200 grain pills.
Update: After tinkering with the 160 grain bullets over various amounts of HS-6, the 9 grain range really gets them moving but are very smoky. I had clocked the 9.7 gr loads from a Taurus 66 with 4 inch barrel pushing into the 1300 fps range. I believe that would put these bullets into territory that will cause good expansion of the hollow point design but I haven't tested that yet.
I did find that a lighter load of 6 grains will push these bullets from a 16 inch rifle barrel to around 1200 fps and might could be a good choice for hunting. I don't have ballistic gel blocks but I might try the redneck science way of shooting old milk jugs full of water. It's not ideal but it does something.
Update 2: I tested subsonic versions of the 160 gr cast hollow points from my Marlin 16 inch rifle since the 200 gr cast are expensive. Both the 4.0 grain and 4.5 grain loads of HS-6 were quiet enough. I have not yet run them over a chronograph to see how fast they move. I'll update that later.
Update 3: I ran out of bullets. They were fun. I will need to order more.
Triple Seven Update
Update APR 2024: I found eight of the 160 grain bullets in a box. I have two sitting in dummy loads for testing and opted to make five rounds of Triple Seven in .38 Special. I wanted to test these from the 16 inch Marlin to see how much velocity I get from around 23 grains by volume with the 160 grain. This is the FFFg version of the powder.
The velocities only worked out to 1245 FPS with and ES of 148. I would like to retest these as I was using a volumetric measure. I think next time, I would like to see what one 23 grains by volume actually weighs and load up some using a powder scale to confirm uniformity. I suspect I didn't do a good job of measuring my charges. That said, I have heard one should use FFg instead of FFFg for rifles. At this time, I don't have enough of the 160 grain bullets left so I'll make a point to start ordering or casting my own.
Lyman 358439 HP
Here in Spring of 2023, I think it's time for me to start casting my own bullets. I have a single cavity bullet mold for a 155 grain hollow point from Lyman I bought as part of a self-sufficiency project I was working on. It's the 358439 HP mold. Essentially, it's a lighter-weight "Keith" style bullet with big lube grooves and big drive bands. It looks like it will do well in 38 Special cases given the size of the first drive band being thick. What I want from this pursuit is to have a deer load for my Marlin 1894 or a single shot pistol like a T/C Contender that I can make on the homestead without having to buy commercial products. On a side note, the 358439 may end up being 160 grain so we'll see how that plays out.
Looking over the Lyman Cast Bullet book, we're looking at around 9 to 10 grains of HS-6 for magnum loads but I started doing research for rifle specific data. That's led me to Hodgdon's H110. I knew that Alliant's 2400 powder has been used successfully for 357 for decades and that many people have also used Unique. I'd also seen where people have loaded other cartridges with those powders like .300 Blackout making me think that having a bottle or two of either would be a good universal powder. Continuing down that research hole, I found that people have also used H110 for powerful 357 loads but are also successful in using it for .300 Blackout. You can also make cast bullets for .300 Blackout and might be useful for something like my bolt-action Remington 700 in 300 Blackout. I don't expect it would be optimal but it might be worth having around.
Given that I can order H110 from the same LGS I got the HS-6 from, I think I should put in an order some time this year and start the casting crusade.
Taking a closer look. I believe the mold I have is the same or nearly the same as the GT Bullets 160 grain. If that's the case that would give me a mold to make those bullets. I suspect that the GT Bullets' option is capable at taking a whitetail deer. That is something that I have been wanting to consider.
125 Grain
Berry's Bullets makes a flat nose jacketed bullet that are somewhat inexpensive at around 22 cents per round after shipping, which is steep. That said, Hodgdon has load data for a cast 125 bullet for Trail Boss starting at 3.5 grains moving up to 5.3 grains and staying subsonic. That information is likely for a revolver but somewhere in there could be a good subsonic rifle load to use up some of the Trail Boss I have. What I've read is that the high levels of powder should use the 357 Mag cases. I found around 4.5 grains in 38 Special cases puts the powder into compression or near compression. I stopped loading at 4.7 grains for the 38 Special cases but then did a 5.6 gr load for 357 Mag cases.
After getting out to shoot, it looks like the 3.5 grains in 38 Special cases is just fine and don't seem to tumble. At around 4.3 grains, they got a little louder than what I want and the 4.7 grains seemed to be supersonic from the 16 inch barrel. I realized that I don't need the maximum charge possible. All I need is an inexpensive load I can whip up for when I want to take someone new to the range with while being quiet. I still need to run them over a chronograph and shoot groups but I think the 3.5 to 4.0 grain load with Trail Boss is a real winner for shortrange subsonic plinking.
When I took those 3.5 and 4.0 grain Trail Boss loads out, I was able to run both over my chronograph. The 3.5 gr load was pushing around 641 FPS with an extreme spread of 66 FPS and the 4.0 grain load around 801 FPS with an ES of 38 FPS. I didn't find much difference in the auditory experience between the two so I think I'll stick with the 3.5 grain version with the 125 grain Berry's Bullet for when I take someone to the range. Trail Boss is fairly inexpensive at around $30 for a 9 oz bottle and the bullets at $0.22 per bullet. If you use your own brass and you get the powder local like from Bass Pro but have primers shipped in like I did, these will cost around $0.35 per round. That's pretty good for these days but I think I can do this cheaper. Maybe around $0.25 per round.
I do have a possible recipe for HS-6 and the Berry's Bullets 125 gr JFN that could make for fun revolver loads but I'm looking for cheap, subsonic plinking loads for now.
105 Cast Subsonic Plinking Loads
Update November 2023: I found a company called Slippery Bullets that makes a 105 gr cast and powder coated truncated flat point for cowboy action shooting. I still have some Trail Boss powder so I figured I'd load up a few. The bullets were 9¢ per round with shipping. Not too bad. They aren't meant for anything serious, just cheap plinking with the suppressed lever action and my revolvers.
The suggested loads I've found are starting at 3 grains of TB with a 38 Special case for Cowboy Action and similar. I started loading at 3 grains and ended at 4.0 grains of Trail Boss by Hodgdon. The velocities I got are below using my Caldwell chronograph. It was 70 degrees out. Georgia is weird. It should be cold in November. I made 11 rounds of each except for the 4.0 grains load. For whatever reason, I had a total of 54 primers left in the 100 count box of Remington 5 1/2 Small Pistol Magnum.
3.0 Grains - 844 FPS Average
3.3 Grains - 905 FPS Average
3.5 Grains - 949 FPS Average
3.7 Grains - 997 FPS Average
4.0 Grains - 1057 FPS Average
After running the loads over the chronograph, I attempted groups at 25 yards to see if any were better. The 3.3 grain loads grouped the best but the 4.0 grain loads started to look good. I didn't have enough after chronographing as I used 8 rounds of the 10.
Running them through the suppressed Marlin 1894 is fun. They hit steel nicely and make a satisfying noise. The point of impact isn't majorly different at short range so these fit nicely into the Ambassador roll the ArgentVaquero project was built for. A 9 oz bottle of Trail Boss will produce around 1,100 rounds of those 3.3 grain loads. That said, the 4.0 grain loads looked like they may have grouped pretty nicely had I not ran out. I may make a few more of the 4.0 grain loads to check accuracy. At 4 grains, a bottle only makes around 980 loads. Reducing that to 3.9 grains should get to around 1,000 rounds. I need to see how these loads do in my revolvers. Currently, this load works out to 19 cents per reload with the CCI primers I now have plus the TB and these cast bullets. I think this is the cheapest subsonic range load I have for any of my centerfire guns.
A 2 lbs bottle of TB at 3.3 grains produces around 4,200 rounds. I have enough for a while but given that a 2 lbs. bottle is $90 I think I'll keep my eye out for a resupply. That would bring the cost per round down to 18 cents. That said, if it continues that I can't get Trail Boss like it has for a while now, HS-6 can be substituted according to Hodgdon's website. A charge of 6.2 to 6.6 grains can push to under 950 fps. That's from a 7.7 inch barrel and will require some experimentation to get keep the load slow.
Update NOV 2023: Trail Boss is not being made at this time per the manufacturer's website. I will need to find a substitute for the TB based 105 gr loads.
Update FEB 2024: I've started loading and will test soon, an HS-6 based load for subsonic use in .38 Special Cases. It starts at 6.2 grains and ends at 6.6 grain so no much testing to do with the 105 grain cast bullets. I did also find a load of Titegroup with I think is going to be a winner if they are quiet. If they are, Titegroup can be had locally for under $30.00 for a 1 pound bottle. If the minimum charge of 4.8 grains works, that's 1458 rounds per 1 lbs bottle. That works out to $0.02 per shot. Given that Trail Boss is dead for now, that would likely be the cheapest I can put together something for the Marlin to spit out at $0.18 per round. In retrospect, I suspect that these will be supersonic as the 200 grain load is 5.5 grains and it's very close to supersonic. Thankfully, I only made 15 rounds total. I also have some loads for the 4.5 grain range.
Update MAR 2024: I got to test some of the HS-6 loads with the 105 grain bullets but my chronograph didn't work due to overcast skies. I didn't get velocity data but I was able to confirm subsonic levels by ear. The loads work but the amount of unburnt powder is incredible. I fired 10 rounds and the barrel looked like I had been shooting black powder. I have heard that HS-6 is better for hotter loads and heavier bullets. These are neither. I only fired 5x of 4.5 grain loads and 5x of the 6.2 grain loads. The 4.5 grain loads sounded great but there was powder coming out of the case on extraction. The 6.2 grain loads were mixed in terms of breaking the sound barrier. 2 of the 5 rounds didn't break the sound barrier on the 39 degree day.
I'm thinking I will whip up some 6.0 and 5.8 grain versions to try but I think the 105 grain bullet with undercharged HS-6 isn't what I want due to how dirty it is. The current best subsonic, cheap plinking round I can put together is the Trail Boss load of 3.3 grains with the Slippery Bullets 105 grain cast bullet. I checked to see how much TB I have left and it should be more than enough to use up the last of my 105 grain bullets.
I'm currently thinking the best approach for long term is using HS-6 and to collecting as much wheel weight lead as I can get and start casting either the 200 grain Lee or the 160 grain Lyman. We shall see.
Update MAR: The 105 grain with HS-6 aren't great. I ran another batch with 6.0 grains of HS-6 and they averaged 1136 FPS. All of them broke the sound barrier. The amount of unburnt powder in the barrel is wild. It's just not what I want. I'm going to abandon the HS-6 with light bullets idea for now and start focusing on casting the 200 grain loads. I found I should have enough left over Trail Boss that I can use all the 105 grain cast bullets to make light plinking .38 Special loads.
Update: JUN 2024: I was doing some keyboard level research on powders as I had Aliant's Unique on my mind. I wanted to know if there are any other powders with a similar burn rate available. The burn rate chart has Unique at 32. Hodgdon has their Universal which is listed at 33 but Winchester has a powder at 31 called 244. I found data for the 105 gr .38 Special for 244 and I can source a bottle from a local place. I had wanted to look at Titegroup for my next purchase but the 244 could be a better buy for the .38 Special loads and other light plinking loads. It also works for .45 Colt. I also found that you could try loading a 000 buck pellet as they are .360 inch diameter. With the right powder they could possibly very cheap if the 000 pellet was cast.
Update JUL 2024: I started asking around to see if WinClean 244 would actually be able to replace Unique but so far I haven't gotten any solid answers. I tried to grab a bottle of Titgroup from Academy but they were out so on the way back from the 4th of July vacation, I stopped at Bass Pro a found a bottle of WinClean 244. Hodgdon's Reloading Data Center shows data for 244 and 105 grain bullets. The starting load is 4.1 grains with a velocity of 622 fps and a max load of 4.4 grains at 789 fps. If the minimum charge of 4.1 grains works well for the subsonic 105 grain loads, that gives around 1700 rounds per bottle. That puts us around 2 cents per charge. What will be the determining factor is how clean the load burns as some of the powders I've tried, look like someone poured dirt down an oily barrel. They just aren't clean at the low charges. I now have access to a proper gun range, so I will be doing testing there. I hope the WinClean 244 is the answer to my cheap subsonic plinking load. Interestingly, there is also data for heavy 357 Magnum using 180 grain bullets and 244 on the Hodgdon RLDC. I'm wondering if I can translate that over to the 200 grain pill.
If everything works out, we're at 2 cents for powder, 7 cents per bullet and 8 cents per primer. That should put us around 17 cents per subsonic, .38 Special load. Even if I do the 9 cents per bullet for the 500 that's still 19 cents per round for cheap plinking. I think that's about as good as I can get it for now. That is until I start casting my own bullets. Stay tuned for the results of the 244 tests.
Update JUL 2024 Part 2: I made up 20 rounds with the 4 different levels of 244, starting from 4.1 grains up to 4.4 grains. I had meant to take my chronograph with me but forgot. We're not really looking for velocity per se but that the load is subsonic. I tested the 4.4 grain loads for sound quality and found that all the loads were hearing safe. The acoustics of the shooting bay made it seem like they were subsonic but I'm not sure they actually were. This was in 90 degree weather and high humidity. I assume they will snap in the winter. I shot through the 4.2 and 4.3 grain loads of 5 each as well and they all seemed to sound pretty good. There was a little fouling left in the barrel and the Dead Air Primal captured a small amount of debris so we aren't getting a super clean burn but it's immediately better than the HS-6 light loads. Based on the performance I saw on Monday with the 4.4 grain loads, I made make a much larger batch of the 4.3 grain loads for additional testing as I suspect that's where we will find a happy medium for the subsonic plinking loads. The chronograph will be the true test.
On my next free day, I took the unused 5 rounds of 4.1 grains with an additional 5 rounds I made up along with 45 rounds of 4.3 grains for testing. I also whipped up 10 rounds of 3.9 grains and 4.0 grains which are below the manuals range. Below are the results of the velocity testing from 18 JUL 2024.
3.9 grains - 1040 fps average
4.0 grains - 1092 fps average
4.1 grains - 1165 fps average
4.3 grains - 1216 fps average
All loads were hearing safe, however, all of the 3.9 and 4.0 gr loads were actually subsonic during the 70 something degree weather and high humidity. That said only a few of the nominal range loads were subsonic.
15 yard shots from the Marlin
The short range accuracy from the Marlin 1894 CST is just fine. At 15 yards, they are just left of the zero I currently have. This is perfect. From the context of an indoor shooting range with a target between 15 and 25 yards, the bullet will impact close to the center of the target. Essentially, I will be able to take this load to a range with a new shooter and have a very similar point of impact without adjusting my field ammunition's 100 yard zero. With nearly zero recoil and very low noise the Winchester 244 based .38 Special absolutely fills the Ambassador roll the Marlin 1894 CST fits into. They also shoot pretty well from my Taurus 66 so as a practice load, I like these.
At this point, the only things I can think to test is the 25 yard accuracy of the 3.9 and 4.0 grain loads from the Marlin and Taurus 66 and if either of these loads break the sound barrier during the coldest days during winter. If everything checks works out well, then I think these will work very nicely for what I want. If the lower charge weights aren't great in the revolver, I can still make up 4.3 grain loads for cheap practice rounds.
Current Winners
The 2024 Cheap Plinking Load winner is the 105 grain powder coated bullet with a 3.9 or 4.0 grain charge of Winchester 244 for a theoretical cost of 17 cents per round. This replaces the older 2023 winner using Trail Boss which is not currently available for sale. 244 can be had from various brick and mortar stores with a Big Box type place near me having it without HAZMAT fees. See the 2023 winner for more details.
The 2023 Cheap Plinking Load is the 105 cast bullets from Slippery Bullets. A 500 count box for $35 but are $9.50 to ship. This puts us at 9 cents per round. The 4000 count box is the same in shipping for some reason which puts us at a nice 7 cents per round. If I can find a good source of 2 pounds of Trail Boss and primers for the price I got recently around $7 for 100, we're looking at somewhere around 17 cents per round. That's the cheapest load I can currently make up that does what I want for a subsonic round for suppressor use.
The Cast Performance 200 grain gas checked bullet with 5.5 grains of HS-6 is my pet plinking load. They have lots of thump and are subsonic. The only downside is I can't get a reliable supply of the bullets and are regularly out of stock. They are also somewhat expensive at $32 a box of 100 when they are in stock. Sadly, I only have a half a box left. The plus side is that I have the Lee 200 grain 2 cavity mold. I don't know that these bullets are the same as that mold is but it would be great if they were.
It seems that my first 2 winners here are hindered by availability problems so I will endeavor to find loads that work so having the 2024 update using Winchester 244 is a huge win.
The Barry's Bullets 125 grain bullet and the 244 charges could also work nicely if you have an ample supply of them already.
Other Bullet Options
I also remembered that there's a company called Oregon Trail with their Laser-Cast bullets. I use their 200 gr lead for my 45 Colt rounds. They have a cast 125 gr that's $38 for a box of 500 but it's $20 for shipping so make sure you get a bunch. It is WAY cheaper than the Berry's. I'll be looking at buying a box of those real soon since I'm just about out of the Berry's. I think I can get this down to closer to $0.22 per round if I play my cards right.
Bayou Bullets seems to also have cheap options for cast, powder coated bullets. They have a 95 grain round nose that's $78 for a 1000. 3 grains of Trail Boss could make them potentially subsonic. That's also a tiny amount of powder making that load a very cheap option.
Powder and Primer Considerations
Getting powder is tricky business these days. To ship both, there is an automatic $25 HAZMAT fee on top of the normal shipping and handling. It's best to find a local shop that can get powders and primers delivered to them and you go pick it up. The cost of both plus the extra fees is what is driving up the cost of reloading.
In an update, I was able to pick up from HS-6 from an LGS without HAZMAT fee which is great!
I'll keep updating this post as I tinker around with loads but so far, I'm still happy with the original load of 5.5 grains of HS-6 under the 200 grain gas checked cast bullet for plinking use but I like chasing the cheap loads.
Update NOV 2023: H110 has been sourced from a location I didn't know had powders. I expect to use the H110 for full power 357 Mag loads with a likely focus on Hornady XTP bullets. I also found out that the reason we can't get Trail Boss is because it's made in Australia and apparently Thales stopped producing pending some research project. The ADI website hasn't had an update since DEC 2021 saying the same thing about Trail Boss. Looks like I will need to start working out that HS-6 load for the 105 grain sub sonic
Resources
The below links have provided huge amounts of information but are not the only things I've used. I read old articles written by folks such as Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton themselves to piece information together.
