My Remington Era Marlin 1894 CST - The Current Build Out as of 2025

 In a conversation I had while preparing for the 2025 deer season, I found that I had not actually provided a complete breakdown of the status of what has turned into one of my top 5 guns I own; a Marlin 1894 CST. 

The rifle has been through a total of 3 configurations since I got it in 2019 and had a few name changes such as SodBuster or ArgetVaquero. Each iteration of the rifle's configuration has proven to be very informative in application which ultimately led me to go back to the second configuration. 

The Rifle

The core of this is a Marlin 1894 CST made during the Remington ownership era of Marlin's existence. The CST is one of the first factory lever action rifles to offer a threaded barrel by any of the big names. The only other one I can think of was Mossberg with the 464 SPX. The CST pre-dates the original Dark series of which very few of those 1894 rifles made it out of the factory before going under. Finding a Remington era 1894 Dark in either .357 or .44 is very rare. Most are likely test rifles for the influencers and publications.

The CST was only chambered in .357 Magnum and setup to handle .38 Special. It features a stainless steel construction with a wood stock that has a textured paint job in black. The lever is somewhat enlarged. It's not a true big loop but it's big enough. The barrel is 16.5 inches with a 1/2x28 thread pitch and is supposedly a 1:16 twist rate. I don't know what my rifle weighted at the beginning but the alleged weight was around 6.5 pounds. With everything on it, including 7 rounds in the cuff, the setup is just under 9 pounds with my scale. In general, for a rifle with the leather goods, a few rounds and a heavy silencer, it's pretty good. There is room for improvement.

From the factory, the iron sights were a small receiver mounted aperture sight with a ramped front sight, both from XS. There is a black insert in the barrel's rear dovetail to fill in where a traditional sight would have gone. 

Generally, the action was smooth enough but there was much in the way of fitment. My bolt never seemed to line up perfectly but it runs fine. Additionally, the threads where cut with an elevation bias so the suppressor is angled slightly high toward the 12 o'clock position. It was enough of an issue that I have to run a .45 caliber suppressor when I want a full length can. By 9mm suppressor risks a baffle strike with the second segment installed.

The magazine holds 8 rounds of .357 Magnum. I don't run the rifle fast so I can't say it's been reliable but it feeds. The receiver seems to have a sharp edge somewhere as it can be a bit tricky to get the last round in the magazine with my favorite .357 Magnum ammunition.

This rifle does sadly include a push-button safety that I am not a fan of. There are many people who agree with me. I have not yet deleted it.

I have never put the rifle on a bench with a big scope and shot groups but with the red dot, I can around 2 inch groups if I work at it and shoot very slowly. If there is enough interest from the community, I will change the setup back to a scope and see how it does with magnification.

The CST was discontinued when Remington sold Marlin but the closest current equivalent is the Marlin 1894 Trapper made under Ruger's control and is offered in .44 Mag and .357 Mag. 

The Accessories

The first setup was a Burris Fastfire 3 dot and a direct thread mount for my Dead Air Wolfman and a cheap sling. At one point, there was a scope configuration with a Leupold 2.5x intended for hunting but all of that was replaced.

Midwest Industries came out with a specialized mount for the 1894's footprint that was an aluminum base with the Aimpoint Micro or T1 footprint but includes an integrated rear aperture sight. Essentially, it is a singular bar of metal that you screw a red dot such as the Aimpoint Micro or a SIG Romeo 5 to that also has the rear sight. That entire assembly then screws to the receiver. The kit also comes with a new front sight that has wing protectors. It's very similar to that of an AR-15's front sight.

Sadly, they no longer make the T1 version of their mount but they do still make one that has a short length of picatinny rail. I knew I wanted an enclosed optic and I prefer dedicated mounts so the T1 version is perfect for me.

The MI mount hosts a SIG Romeo5 GEN1 which has been a reliable Go-To for several years for me. While not the highest quality, the price point and capabilities are well balanced and have been working very well for me over the years.

I personally think that a traditional lever action rifle needs to have 2 or 3 pieces of leather no matter what. Every lever action rifle I own has a leather cartridge cuff (or box pouch) and a leather sling. It might also have a lever wrap. In my case, the CST has all three and all of this came from Mason Leather. Mr. Mason has been making this stuff for years now but the cartridge cuff is a bit special. He no longer makes the 7 round cuffs seen in my setup but he does still offer 4 rounds. I got the wrap to match the cuff around the time I got the rifle. The sling is a more recent addition. I replaced the cheap junker I had on it for an incredibly well made Latigo sling with brass fittings. I get no benefits from Mr. Mason. I just really like his work and I have several items from him.

Regarding the silencer and configuration, I have chosen Dead Air's Primal. The Primal is a heavy, fully welded, .45 cal suppressor. It uses the HUB mounting thread pitch and can use the various end caps and devices Dead Air offers. In my case, I am using the standard KeyMo mount and a .45 cal end cap. This was due to a slight manufacturing defect with my barrel's threads not being perfectly aligned with the bore. Were I to use the 9mm suppressor I have, the long configuration risks a baffle strike. The .45 cal bore mitigates that risk. The sound is still fine.

The muzzle device the suppressor attaches to is a now discontinued JMAC Custom's Zero mount. It has no flash hiding or break capabilities. It only mounts the suppressor. The Zero allows me to quick detach the suppressor if I need to but at this point, it's rare for me to do anything else with the Primal. It's all but dedicated to the CST.

Finally, I did add a Ranger Point Precision lever screw that lets me remove the lever and bolt for cleaning. I have found that to be very important when shooting very dirty handloads for suppressed plinking.

As of October of 2025, this is the complete accessory list:

Midwest Industries 1894 T1 Mount with Front Sight - Discontinued but a picatinny version is still available

SIG Romeo 5 red dot - A new generation of this dot is now out

Dead Air Primal - Still offered but feel free to substitute to your needs

JMAC Customs Zero 1/2x28 mount - Discontinued but a similar mount is offered by Dead Air. You don't actually need this as there are newer mounting options.

Ranger Point Precision Lever Screw - Still available

Mason Leather Cartridge Cuff - The 7 round version is discontinued but there is still a 4 round version

Mason Leather Latigo Sling - Still offered

Mason Leather Lever Wrap - Still offered

Ammunition Selection

This is a big deal as it can make or break the use of any setup. In my case, I spent a significant amount of time looking for the right cartridges. I even have a full article in just choosing the Remington .357 Magnum load. To keep it short, the Remington HTP .357 Magnum is loaded with their 158 grain semi-jacketed hollow point and has been the Go-To since I selected it. It's not the deepest penetrating or fastest or largest expanding load out there. It was chosen because it works in both pistols AND rifles while still meeting penetration levels appropriate for self-defense and whitetail deer hunting applications. The bullets stayed together and expanded well with good penetration. Everything you need a hunting and self-defense bullet to do well, it does. It truly is a General Purpose loading. From my rifle, my chronograph says my Remington HTP loads are just shy of 1800 fps. I have been able to extrapolate that I should be able to achieve a good effect on a whitetail deer out to around 135 yards. As it sits, a 100 yard zero puts the bullet around 3.45 inches below point of aim at that same distance. Penetration should be around 17 to 19 inches in ballistic gel. So far, that equates to a broadside passthrough on a whitetail as I found out in 2023.

There are definitely other very capable loads on the market but I wanted to focus on the general purpose aspect of this setup and not a dedicated hunting rifle.

Most .38 Special stays subsonic from the rifle. The lighter loads probably won't but I haven't used anything under 158 grain factory loads that I can think of. I have some homemade 105 grain powder-puff loads and some heavy 200 grain thumpers that are both subsonic from the rifle and are rather quiet and fun to shoot.

Utility

I have found that this rifle works very well. It has fully replaced my Winchester 94 in .30-30 for rifle hunting applications and remains my primary deer-taker for our small property. I have a new hunting opportunity for the 2025 season that gives me access to private land and I have authorization to use a suppressor so this will be my primary tool for the 2025 deer season with a .357 Magnum revolver to back it up.

I took this doe at 99 yards and got a pass through

It also works well as a Farm Rifle in that it travels well so if I feel the need to take a rifle, I like taking this one. I have also been working on handloads in .38 Special for the sole purpose of plinking. In fact, plinking is the reason I went back to the red dot setup and ditched the Leupold 2.5x scope. It was just way more fun with my handloads and the red dot than with the scope.

Summary and Future

Simply put, from hunting to defense to fun, this current iteration is very well configured. Handloading is easy and it carries nicely. So far I haven't run into fatigue issues due to the weight but I also don't currently hunt the way I used to.

While the CST and many accessories I use are no longer available, Marlin now offers the 1894 Trapper which is effectively the same thing and might actually be a little better in most cases. The most major difference will be the wood type and the Skinner vs XS rear sight. Many of the parts have alternative versions that are still available but there are many different companies who offer similar products that one could build something similarly.

The future of this rifle should be a long term use with very few changes. I like to keep my eyes out for new products that make things better and I have identified several products that I would like to incorporate into this rifle. They aren't needed but I like them.

First is the Griffin Armament Sportsman Ultra Light .46. New for 2025, Griffin Armament announced a .46 caliber suppressor that weighs 10.5 oz without a mount. That is around 6 oz lighter than the Primal's weight minus the 4.3 oz KeyMo mount. My current suppressor setup is around 21 oz without including the JMAC Zero device. Using a direct thread with the Griffin Sportsman should cut weight down by around 11.5 oz which is a really big deal. That puts me around 8.26 pounds of in-field weight for a fully kitted out rifle. I very much like that idea as it would improve the balance and handling of the rifle. It also frees up my only full-rifle rated suppressor for other things. I would dedicate the Sportsman .46 for use on the CST.

Wren Metal Works offers a Torx screw replacement kit for the 1894. While that doesn't sound important, the screws on these rifles are slotted and they mar easily. Sadly they don't offer a stainless steel version but the black just adds a little flair. I just like these and want them. I don't have a need for them; just a want.

Beartooth Mercantile offers a pair of safety delete options in stainless and blued steels. One is a slotted bolt that just looks like another screw but they also have a saddle ring option that I am partial to. I don't need it but I'm inclined to add one.

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed a look at what has become one of my top 5 guns that I own.

357 Magnum As a General Purpose or Universal Cartridge for Both Rifles and Pistols

 Regarding a topic that I've gone over quite a few times, I attempted to go back in my writings and find where I laid out my complete execution of deploying the .357 Magnum cartridge along with selected factory loading in what I call the General Purpose concept. Other people have called this the Universal Cartridge. The idea is simple, a cartridge where your sidearm and rifle use the same ammunition. I know under "357 Magnum - My New Love Affair and a Cartridge for Many Guns" I give some coverage to the idea and that in other articles I discus the utility, but I don't remember where I truly sat down and provided the full details as to why I have come to regard, at least currently, the .357 Magnum cartridge as the ultimate, practical expression of the idea.

Over the years, I have seen people refer to this idea with different names; Perfect Pairs by IraqVeteran8888, The Universal Cartridge by both Duelist1954 and InRangeTV. I've read it as "The Two-Gun Man Comes Back" in the 1956 January edition of Guns Magazine. If you search the internet enough, you'll find numerous discussions on the topic. In any case, the idea tends to be attributed to frontiersman and cowboys wielding repeating rifles such as a Winchester 1873 while packing a revolver in a belt. Both rifle and pistol are chambered for something such as 44-40 though the idea has been seen as far back as the .44 Henry. The intent is to keep logistics to a minimum. Today, with our improved powders and engineered bullets, this idea becomes more and more useful.

Originally, I had planned on the .45 Colt cartridge being that for me, however, it morphed into the .357 Magnum after several years of buying and selling off select firearms. The .357 Magnums stayed and the .45 Colts went. Personally, I think that was simply because I bought the wrong .45 Colts. I know many people would argue that the .44 Magnum and .41 Magnum cartridges will do all these things and I accept that as true. Ultimately, what has sold me on the .357 Magnum as the king of the Universal Cartridges is concealed carry. The larger cartridges just don't have small guns chambered for them. Even the Smith and Wesson 69 isn't all that small being an L-frame. I don't know how big the Taurus 415 is but I suspect it's about the same size as an K/L frame.

Historically, concealed carry has played an important roll in my life. That's probably an understatement. The ability to properly conceal a firearm for self defense is a major factor in today's society. Open carry of a large revolver doesn't play nicely in the urban sprawls that are dominating regions. There is a reason the name Charlanta has become a thing. The rural spaces between Atlanta and Charlotte are disappearing and are being filled by suburban neighborhoods. It's partly why we moved to South of Atlanta. Even our little section of rural America is being threatened with expansion. The tracts of land are getting smaller and smaller. Thankfully, there is still lots of great space outside of the megaregion here on the East Coast.

Before I go too far, I want to cover what led me down the .357 Magnum path. Back in 2020 and the start of COVID, things had started getting very interesting. Ammunition prices had gone through the roof. I remember seeing a box of Winchester white box 9mm NATO for $45. I usually bought it for $9.99 at most. By 2022, I got very concerned that the world wouldn't hold together and that having a revolver in .357 Magnum was a good idea for logistics reasons. Something I could pair up with my Marlin 1894 CST which I had taken too nicely and a Taurus 66 I had had for many years. Not long before we committed to buying our 19 acre property, what we call the Little Farm, I had found the Taurus 605 Defender. It was an inexpensive stainless steel revolver to match nicely with the stainless steel 1894. I also settled on the Remington HTP 158 grain semi-jacketed hollow point for use in both of those. I think I did a decent job loosely covering the idea the that above article but I think it's time to go over the finer points of what makes this setup just about perfect. More specifically, I want to over over the chosen load and the deployment of that load for general purpose.

I think my favorite aspect of this has been the round count. It wasn't planned like this but a single box of 20 rounds makes the Two-Gun setup ready to go. First up is the Taurus 605. The 605 Defender is a 5 shot, 3 inch stainless steel Brazilian made tool with fixed sights, a radioluminescent front sight and a full underlug for the barrel. The Marlin rifle only holds 8 rounds in the tubular magazine but with the addition of a Mason Leather cartridge cuff, I can hold an additional 7 rounds on the stock. Without a round in the chamber, the rifle has a total of 15 rounds on board in what we will call Cruiser Ready. It's an older police term to describe the carry condition of a long gun. With a single 20 round Remington box, I can load 5 rounds into my revolver and holster it. Next I can load 7 into the cuff and 8 into the rifle's magazine for a grand total of 20 rounds. It's perfect and I very much appreciate it. Sadly, the perfection stops there as once you start loading up speed strips and speed loaders, the numbers fall apart. You could carry two 5-round speed loaders and a 8-round speed strip from TUFF leaving 2 rounds in a second box. It's not unusual for me to have that speed strip in a pocket with that rifle. 

What made the Remington load so interesting was a video a came across on YouTube. 

What made me like this is at how short of a range the bullet did a good job holding together at the higher velocities. While some of the bullet's weight was shed, the bullet's expanded diameter stayed large at .5 inch and continued to penetrate into the 18 inch range. I was impressed then. I later referenced the companion revolver video finding that the bullet did even better from a 4 inch barrel. Simply put, from a common revolver length barrel, the velocities around 1300 fps net around 19 inches worth of penetration while expanding to half an inch or so. Eventually, I found the Lucky Gunner also tested this load in their ammo test series and got similar results from the 4 inch test gun they used. Ultimately, the 1300 fps velocity with 19 inches of penetration and great expansion is confirmed with with corroborating data to support this load as being a good choice for what I have in mind. Additionally, Lucky Gunner tested a 2 inch barrel with great expansion results and around 14 inches of penetration at 1117 fps. There are other people who have done similar testing with similar results. 

Going over all the available data, my rifle pushes these 158 grain bullets to 1796 fps per my Caldwell chronograph. With a BC reported by Remington of 0.145, 1300 fps lands at the 116 yard mark. In another test I found, the 1241 fps mark shows that we would still have great penetration at around 135 yards which is about 3.45 inches below point of aim when zeroed at 100 yards. For hunting, I think this stacks up very well but for self-defense, the lower velocity of 1117 fps is achieved at 181 yards and may not have enough penetration to be effective on whitetail. That indicates that the rifle could function for defensive purposes at much longer distances if needed. If I stick with focusing on the penetration depths, the 1241 fps still achieves +18 inches worth of penetration in gel. If we split the difference between 1241 and 1117 for 1179 fps and split the difference between 14 inches of penetration and 20 inches from that test at 1241 fps, we end up with 1179 fps achieving around 17 inches of penetration. This is extrapolated and therefore unproven but I figure that's fine for whitetail with broadside shots with what I think should be a hard minimum being around 16 inches. That's a top I want to research more. Getting back to the numbers, the calculator puts 1179 fps around 155 yards. In my 30-30 vs .357 article, I had similar numbers, close, but they weren't as precise. I may have forgotten to include some of the thought processing to get you the reader to where I got.

As it were, if my numbers are correct, 155 yards is still quite the feat for a small pistol caliber rifle but I maintain that someone could have a setup with a Marlin 1894 Classic and a good scope with the correct zero and take full advantage of this Remington HTP load for most of their hunting. Interestingly, while writing this, I found a study done by the South Carolina DNR that concluded that 132 yards was the average distance a shot was taken. Our rifle setup coves that and more. That said, I'm not convinced the Remington load is great for hunting with a typical revolver. If we accept my 1179 fps as the minimum acceptable velocity for expansion and penetration on a whitetail deer, a 4 inch barrel will achieve that velocity around 38 yards if we get 1300 fps. If you are hunting in shorter distances from a stand or a blind, you might find this works just well enough for your purposes. Maybe it would be fine. Ultimately, I wish I could find more 2 inch barrel tests using the HTP load to find out if I am correct. I would test it myself but I only have the 3 inch 605. 

While I could use the HTP for handgun hunting, I would feel better using another bullet, the Hornady XTP. Using the same methodology for assessing performance, the XTP seems to expand just a little less but penetrates much more. Additionally, it does so with a lower velocity envelope. I am currently in the process of developing my own handload using the 158 grain XTP and H110 specifically for handgun hunting and I suspect the rifle performance will do very well. Personally, I don't know that once I have a suitable load for the XTP, that I will make the complete switch from the Remington factory load over to the XTP based handload for daily use. I have a rather ample supply of the Remington HTP load and the distances observed in my deer hunting are met with the HTP. At the current rate of consumption that I am successfully taking deer, a sizable percentage of my stock could result in around 200 deer taken. I suspect that's a life time of deer. I should go shoot more.

Getting back to the topic of generalization, instead of specialization, the HTP does a great job. We see in the gel testing that the 158 gr SJHP achieves between 14 inches and 20 inches in common concealed carry type revolvers. For some people, the 18 inch maximum for self defense loads is a hard stop. If that's you, you may want to stick with the 2 inch barrel. I still think the 3 inch is just about perfect. It gives me a little higher performance for outdoors defense but it's still small enough to conceal. Interestingly, the over all size of the 605 Defender 3 inch is about the exact same as my P365XL with just a little barrel length poking out. I find that to be a practical size for everyday carry. 

So far, in everything I have covered, I have solely relied on the Remington HTP to do everything from self defense to putting food on the table. What I don't want people to think is that there is only one way. Clearly that's just not true and in practice, it's not necessary. The firearms capable of running .357 mag can also handle .38 Special. Instead of using full power .357 Mag for self-defense and only sticking with one thing, it's reasonable for someone to use a great .38 Special load in their carry revolver and have a fantastic magnum load for the rifle. I would still recommend that whatever revolver you purchase be chambered for the same as your rifle but your choice of ammunition is your own. 

Outside of the Remington SJHP and the Hornady XTP, there are a few rounds that could do well that I haven't verified through cross-referencing. Target Suite on YouTube tested a variety of loads in 2024 and found that three JSP loads work very well from a rifle. Since I am unable to find pistol velocities for these loads that confirm expansion and penetration. The Barnes 180 grain Pioneer load is interesting in that if the advertised pistol velocity still expands and drives deep, the Pioneer load could be a better choice as it could still function out to the 165 yard range. I can't find enough information to make an educated guess on the Federal HammerDown load. The Federal American Eagle JSP has been tested by some folks from revolvers but I have not seen where a barrel length long enough from a handgun actually got good expansion and should be limited to longer barrels, though I can't say for sure what that minimum length would be. It's possible they would still work in a Mare's Leg at shorter distance. 

What I am trying to highlight here is that you could have a good load for the rifle and a different load for the revolver that could still be interchangeable but may not function optimally beyond putting a 36 caliber hole into something. 

Beyond self defense and sporting applications, the .357 Magnum and by proxy the .38 Special, has proven to be a good platform for target sports. By rolling a third pistol into the mix would allow for Bullseye or a similar sport. Alternatively, Cowboy Action with a pair of single action .357's and your lever action, plus a shotgun, allows for a fun ecosystem inline with my current configuration.

In summary, my basis for the .357 Magnum cartridge being such a good choice for the candidate of General Purpose relies heavily on the ballistic gelatin testing parameters and a ballistic calculator to prove it on paper. In the real world, the results are turning out to be pretty good. My first attempt at taking a whitetail back in 2023 was successful and so far, the subsequent years, I haven't hunted with anything else. While I have aspirations of hunting with other projects, I keep going for my Marlin rifle.

I've toyed with the idea of purchasing a new Ruger made Marlin 1894 Classic with the 18 inch barrel to see if any velocity is picked up compared to my 16 inch but I don't have much room at the moment to justify spending the $1000 needed to buy such a rifle. This is especially true when my 16 inch CST does what I need it to from a general purpose perspective. Maybe I can justify it for Cowboy Action with a pair of Vaqueros or Taurus Deputies. I already have the side by side.

As it sits right now, I have not been able to realize a better cartridge that matches the .357 Magnum's practical applications like I have highlights above. I suspect the 10mm Auto could be configured to achieve similar results but for the semi-auto firearms available. As of now, I haven't confirmed it yet. I'm currently leaning to a CMMG Banshee rifle with a Glock 29 combination and some unverified load for 10mm will be just the ticket to achieve this goal. Even if I am successful with the 10mm, the .357 Magnum looks poised to just do the job better over all. There is, however, a curveball. Something for you to think about. I have one parting piece I want to throw out. Just as in Star Wars, as Master Yoda said "there is another." The .327 Federal Magnum. What happens when we stuff that into a Henry Big Boy 327?

Stay tuned to see what I find next.

Source Citations

South Carolina DNR Study - https://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html

Guns Magazine Citation - I am unable to post the Guns Magazine link because Google says that their domain is unsafe which triggered a Community Guidelines take down. I have removed the URL but if you want the source, you can find it in the January 1956 publication of the periodical. 

The Modern General Purpose Cartridge - Updating the Classic Two Gun Man Concept

I love the application of what I have started calling the General Purpose cartridge. It started with the .357 Magnum setup I have with my Marlin 1894 CST, the Taurus 605 Defender and the Remington HTP 158 grain SJHP load. The revolver for defense that meets the FBI testing in ballistic gel with a rifle that can take a deer at 100 yards and do it all from 1 box of ammo. 

It has a very practical nature to it but I just can't shake the fact that modern, semi-auto firearms are the norm. I almost never actually carry the Taurus but I do carry my SIG P365XL. I would like to try to duplicate the same capabilities but in modern platforms. A general purpose cartridge for both semi-auto rifle and carry pistol that can take a whitetail from at least 100 yards from the rifle and small enough pistol for concealed carry. All from one box of ammo. The Marlin rifle and Taurus pistol do that but I want it in semi-auto. I will add one more requirement; the guns use the same magazines. Looks like it'll be a Glock. I just need to figure out what cartridge and load to use. 

While technically, .357 Mag can be used from a semi-auto, there are very few guns like that. The Coonan .357 is proof that it works but no one makes a semi-auto rifle. I don't care about the Desert Eagle in .357 mag. In this instance, we need to build or select our cartridge for the application. I don't want something proprietary, unless it's .357 Mag Rimless. And no, .357 SIG just is not the same even if Federal's 125 grain HST is impressive.

Below, I go over the direction I would take if I ever get to make this work, however, there are new technologies that are becoming available that have been around a while. After SHOT Show 2025 and specifically Federal's new 7mm Backcountry has come out, I suspect my idea could be rolled up into a brand new cartridge that I will conceptualize below. 

Current Options: 

I'm open to options such as .45 ACP or .357 SIG but I suspect that a .40 cal will be the best choice. As I do research, 10mm Auto should have the case capacity, pressure rating and commercial support to make this work. There might also be an option for .40 S&W. To make the 10mm work, I will need to test the different loads or find any data available on the internet to see if I can extrapolate. The rifle velocities are the hardest to find.

So far a combination of data from BBTI on the Hornady 200 grain XTP and YouTube videos shows that the 200 grain XTP can do the job. A 16 inch barrel should net around 1260 FPS per BBTI which results in a velocity of 1075 fps around 100 yards. The question that needs answered is if the 200 grain XTP open reliably and penetrate deep enough at a velocity of 1050 fps. Another problem is that Hornady stopped making the 200 grain XTP some time ago. They do still make the 180 grain so that's the most likely starting point. 

There are several manufacturers such as Underwood that use the 180 grain XTP and it might be possible to find a factory load that does what I am looking for. 

Handloading could achieve this pretty handily. I found a spreadsheet of testing done with 10mm loads using Accurate #9 and 180 grain XTPs. It also has 16 inch barrel data in it. The lowest possible load listed was 12.2 grains of #9. From a rifle, this person says they got 1339 fps from their rifle. This is actually higher than our hypothetical need of 1250. That could give us some wiggle room on the bottom end. That would get us 1088 at 100 yards for the rifle. 

Pistol data has been easier to find. The mid 13 grain charges of #9 from full size pistols appear to be 1200 and similar. I would bet those would be very snappy in a little Glock 29. Mid 13 grains would be around 1470 per the spreadsheet. That's more than we need so we could back that down. Comparing the anecdotal data to the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center shows #9 from a 5 inch test barrel is 12.2 gr at 1093 fps and 13.5 gr moving at 1242 fps. That seems to line up nicely. 

I won't necessarily run Accurate #9 but it's more of a demonstrator what velocities we can achieve with 10mm and 180 grain XTPs. It also gives us reference levels.

At this point, we need to find a factory load that does as good or better than the 12.2 grain #9 load from a Glock Model 29. I'm choosing the 29 because it's turnkey solution that's easily available. Springfield's XD-M also has an optics ready subcompact, so that's an option but good luck finding a rifle with a magazine to match it. Same goes for the S&W option.

For factory loads, the Hornady Custom (#9126) looks like it could fit the bill. 

Finding YouTube videos of gel testing from handguns isn't all that hard to find. Lucky Gunner has testing data that seems to match what TNOutdoors9 found, so we have corroborating data. They even had similar penetration levels of just under 17 inches in gel with denim. That should be enough for deer on a broadside shot. 

To answer the previous question of minimum data we have is that 1150 fps is a confirmed good velocity. I don't know if the hypothetical of 1050 fps is valid. The lowest velocity I can find at this time has been 1144 fps from the Hornady load. 

Since I can't seem to find rifle data for the Hornady factory load, I think we can extrapolate the 16 barrel velocity. BBTI shows that all the heavier loads are picking up around 200 fps from the 4 inch barrel to the 16 inch barrel. If we take the 1150 fps and add 200 fps, we should be getting around 1350 fps which isn't outside the realm of possibilities based on the numbers seen with BBTI as well as the spreadsheet I found. In fact, that's pretty conservative in the loading  The spreadsheet says that would be around 12.5 grains of Accurate #9 with the 180 grain XTP.

At this point, this is starting to look very achievable with commercial, off the shelf stuff. Let's just run that through a calculator just to make sure.

100 yard zero with an AR pattern rifle using an HOB of 2.6 inches.

The chart says that with a 1350 fps muzzle velocity from a 16 inch barrel with a BC of 0.164, we are going to see the lowest confirmed velocity of 1144 fps at 75 yards. At 100 yards, we are seeing 1093 fps. I do like that at 60 yards, we're less than 2 inches high with an AR height-over-bore of 2.6 inch zeroed at 100 yards. 

Underwood 180 gr XTP is advertised as 1300 fps from a pistol barrel but testing seems to indicate that it's right about the same as the Hornady with common pistols like the G20.

If we use 1150 fps as our hard minimum needed for expansion and penetration, a handload netting 1450 fps from a rifle barrel will get us to that minimum at 100 yards. 

Interestingly, if we extrapolate more data from the spreadsheet and compare to the RLDC, 1450 fps would be very close to 13.5 grains of Accurate #9 or so which is the max charge weight. 

Simply put, with handloads, this exercise is completely achievable with existing products.

As an aside, I ran through the exercise again but for .357 SIG for fun. I found that the Speer Gold Dot load was used for testing of an Aero Survival Rifle by TNW. They got 1800 fps average or so from the rifle. Lucky Gunner got high 1300's in their testing with 18 inches of penetration in gel from a pistol. I want to note that I spent hours on the above 10mm exercise comparing every shred of data I could find. It's some what annoying that in less than 5 minutes, I was able to confirm that the Speer Gold Dot load can do what we want. The only issue that would need to be confirmed is if .357 SIG at 100 yards is accurate enough for deer. I would also like to note that I think the .40 S&W Federal 180 grain HST, I suspect could be used as well but I need the rifle velocity data and I don't see that anywhere.

I would also like to add that Lucky Gunner did a 100 yard ammo test from handguns years ago. They had a hard time doing it but several of the loads such as the .45 ACP HST and 147 grain 9mm HST opened up and penetrated in the 100 yard target. This would indicate that both the 9mm and 45 ACP cartridges can be used for this roll as well with the correct cartridges. 

Future:

What if we took .357 Magnum and stuffed it into a new case that completely duplicated the performance but in a shorter, higher pressure case? A case short enough that we can put it into a modern pistol and high enough pressure to drive a 158 grain bullet to take a deer at 125 yards. I've been wanting to float this idea to a manufacturer for several months now.

Federal released a new cartridge based off of technology that allows for what is considered to be much higher chamber pressure by contemporary standards but still safely operate in what could be considered standard rifles. See 7mm Backcountry.

My thought is what I will call 9mm General Purpose or .357 Automatic. I'm not a ballistian but I'm thinking about taking something like .30 Super Carry and ballooning out the case to 9mm. There might have to be changes to the case length. Increase the chamber pressure. I don't know what we would need to drive a 158 grain bullet out to 100 yards from a 16 inch barrel and still get 1360 FPS. This matches what I get from my current setup. I figure Federal's new case metal would likely be a good choice.

The bullet needs to be engineered so that from whatever handgun launches it still gets enough velocity to achieve FBI standards in ballistic gel from short range and meet and exceed 18 inches in gel at 125 yards.

I'm trying to reach out to a few manufacturers to talk about it and see what comes from it.

Here's the link to the spreadsheet for the 10mm handloads and rifle velocities

https://10mmautocombat.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/10mm-rifle-data.pdf

Update FEB 2025: I found someone had started comparing factory loads using a Ruger LC Carbine in 10mm. One of the loads was Federal's Punch with a 200 grain bullet. They also tested the SIG 180 Grain FMJ. The Federal load is found to work well from a Glock 20 and get good expansion and penetration. Sadly, the Federal load wasn't moving fast enough to get a confirmable velocity via calculator for 100 yards. The Federal load is in the 900's at that distance and may not expand. The SIG 180 grain load got around 1500 FPS from the rifle which puts the velocity around 1196 at 100 yards. The lowest velocity seen during expansion testing is mid 1100 which means that the SIG V-Crown 180 grain JHP is very likely our starting point for testing as the rifle velocity is fast enough for 100 yards and the load still works well in pistols. I think we have a winner.

Update MAR 2025: I continued to do research, as you can expect I will do, and found that the Buffalo Bore load 21B, is my first selection for this. First is that the load is pushing high 1600 FPS from a 16 inch barrel based on testing I've found from TNW. Additional testing shows that from a Glock Model 20, the bullets expand in the 1100 FPS range which lands right around 100 yards from the 16 inch barrel. Recently, Smith and Wesson released a 10mm version of their folding rifle with street prices being under $600. If that rifle is decently accurate at 100 yards, say 3 inch groups or better, then I think we have a setup; S&W's FPC in 10mm, an M&P 10mm Compact 4.0 and Buffalo Bore's 21B load with a spare magazine should be pretty darn close. Too bad Kel-Tec doesn't do a SUB2000 10mm that uses Glock mags.

Update APR 2025: Kel-Tec has announced they will have the SUB2000 in 10mm this year that uses Glock 20 magazines.

Update NOV 2025: Marlin has a lever action in 10mm and there are revolvers in 10mm if you wanted to go with the traditional route.