In 2024, I made my first attempt at handgun hunting and it did not go well. In the article I wrote covered everything, including a plan to correct my failures. The primary steps I need to take are practice and more practice. To practice, you need ammunition and in this economy, .357 Magnum is not cheap. Thankfully, components are relatively inexpensive. I acquired 200 of the 158 grain version of Hornady's XTP along with a bottle of H110.
The first set of handloads started with load data at 16.2 grains and worked up to 16.7 grains increasing by .1 increments. I skipped 16.4 grains resulting in a total of 50 rounds loaded up for velocity testing. After having them sit around for about a month, the only day I had a chance to do anything was a rainy Saturday that I needed to use for mowing the Little Farm. Once I was tired of being soaked on the tractor, I setup my Caldwell chronograph under the tailgate of my 4Runner. After stepping back some distance, I began the testing with my Taurus 66 with 4 inch barrel.
Hornady XTP 158 grain with H110
16.2 - 1151 fps - ES 95
16.3 - 1199 fps - ES 114
16.5 - 1210 fps - ES 49
16.6 - 1226 fps - ES 43
16.7 - 1276 fps - ES 71 (there is an outlier of 1237 that if removed I get 50 fps for the ES which is better)
None of the loads had what I think are excellent extreme spreads but they were worse with the lesser loads. I also had some trouble with getting readings on some of the loads. I don't know if my chronograph is working well or calibrated correctly but I did some additional testing with a factory load I had on hand, the Remington HTP 158 grain SJHP.
Remington HTP 158 grain SJHP
1373 fps - ES 46
Seeing those numbers for the HTP absolutely surprised me. So much so that I am questioning the accuracy of my chronograph. Every test I have seen of the Remington ammunition from a 4 inch barrel is usually in the high 1200 fps with some being low 1300s but to be 70+ fps higher than any other tests concerns me. That said, it does highlight that right now, it might be better for me to zero my red dot for the HTPs and practice with the XTPs.
Looking over the numbers for the XTPs and running the 16.6 and 16.7 grain velocities through a ballistic calculator, I find that even the 16.6 grain load should have enough velocity to make it to the 110 yard mark and still expand and penetrate nicely. The HTP should still be good for around 60 or so yards based on minimum velocity thresholds I use for each. I use 1044 fps for the XTP and around 1190 for the HTP which these are based off of data collected from testing seen around the Internet. If you add some velocity for error, we still have some good useable distance. Based on performance from the 2024 hunt, I think I will limit myself to 50 yards as best I can so either loads should work fine. Additionally, this works nicely as the gun club I have a membership with has a 50 yard range that I can do this sort of thing with.
I had figured that I would be most interested in the higher end of the load data anyway so next steps will be to load up additional strings of both the 16.6 and 16.7 grain versions. I'm thinking around 25 of each. This will allow for additional velocity testing along with some beginning accuracy testing and it uses up the last 50 bullets in the first Hornady box and last of the CCI primer box I have to match. I also have a few of the factory Hornady Custom with the same bullets that I want to run over the chronograph as a baseline. Next time I go out, I will try to test on a sunny day instead of slapping together something.
Regarding a topic that I've gone over quite a few times, I attempted to go back in my writings and find where I laid out my complete execution of deploying the .357 Magnum cartridge along with selected factory loading in what I call the General Purpose concept. Other people have called this the Universal Cartridge. The idea is simple, a cartridge where your sidearm and rifle use the same ammunition. I know under "357 Magnum - My New Love Affair and a Cartridge for Many Guns" I give some coverage to the idea and that in other articles I discus the utility, but I don't remember where I truly sat down and provided the full details as to why I have come to regard, at least currently, the .357 Magnum cartridge as the ultimate, practical expression of the idea.
Over the years, I have seen people refer to this idea with different names; Perfect Pairs by IraqVeteran8888, The Universal Cartridge by both Duelist1954 and InRangeTV. I've read it as "The Two-Gun Man Comes Back" in the 1956 January edition of Guns Magazine. If you search the internet enough, you'll find numerous discussions on the topic. In any case, the idea tends to be attributed to frontiersman and cowboys wielding repeating rifles such as a Winchester 1873 while packing a revolver in a belt. Both rifle and pistol are chambered for something such as 44-40 though the idea has been seen as far back as the .44 Henry. The intent is to keep logistics to a minimum. Today, with our improved powders and engineered bullets, this idea becomes more and more useful.
Originally, I had planned on the .45 Colt cartridge being that for me, however, it morphed into the .357 Magnum after several years of buying and selling off select firearms. The .357 Magnums stayed and the .45 Colts went. Personally, I think that was simply because I bought the wrong .45 Colts. I know many people would argue that the .44 Magnum and .41 Magnum cartridges will do all these things and I accept that as true. Ultimately, what has sold me on the .357 Magnum as the king of the Universal Cartridges is concealed carry. The larger cartridges just don't have small guns chambered for them. Even the Smith and Wesson 69 isn't all that small being an L-frame. I don't know how big the Taurus 415 is but I suspect it's about the same size as an K/L frame.
Historically, concealed carry has played an important roll in my life. That's probably an understatement. The ability to properly conceal a firearm for self defense is a major factor in today's society. Open carry of a large revolver doesn't play nicely in the urban sprawls that are dominating regions. There is a reason the name Charlanta has become a thing. The rural spaces between Atlanta and Charlotte are disappearing and are being filled by suburban neighborhoods. It's partly why we moved to South of Atlanta. Even our little section of rural America is being threatened with expansion. The tracts of land are getting smaller and smaller. Thankfully, there is still lots of great space outside of the megaregion here on the East Coast.
Before I go too far, I want to cover what led me down the .357 Magnum path. Back in 2020 and the start of COVID, things had started getting very interesting. Ammunition prices had gone through the roof. I remember seeing a box of Winchester white box 9mm NATO for $45. I usually bought it for $9.99 at most. By 2022, I got very concerned that the world wouldn't hold together and that having a revolver in .357 Magnum was a good idea for logistics reasons. Something I could pair up with my Marlin 1894 CST which I had taken too nicely and a Taurus 66 I had had for many years. Not long before we committed to buying our 19 acre property, what we call the Little Farm, I had found the Taurus 605 Defender. It was an inexpensive stainless steel revolver to match nicely with the stainless steel 1894. I also settled on the Remington HTP 158 grain semi-jacketed hollow point for use in both of those. I think I did a decent job loosely covering the idea the that above article but I think it's time to go over the finer points of what makes this setup just about perfect. More specifically, I want to over over the chosen load and the deployment of that load for general purpose.
I think my favorite aspect of this has been the round count. It wasn't planned like this but a single box of 20 rounds makes the Two-Gun setup ready to go. First up is the Taurus 605. The 605 Defender is a 5 shot, 3 inch stainless steel Brazilian made tool with fixed sights, a radioluminescent front sight and a full underlug for the barrel. The Marlin rifle only holds 8 rounds in the tubular magazine but with the addition of a Mason Leather cartridge cuff, I can hold an additional 7 rounds on the stock. Without a round in the chamber, the rifle has a total of 15 rounds on board in what we will call Cruiser Ready. It's an older police term to describe the carry condition of a long gun. With a single 20 round Remington box, I can load 5 rounds into my revolver and holster it. Next I can load 7 into the cuff and 8 into the rifle's magazine for a grand total of 20 rounds. It's perfect and I very much appreciate it. Sadly, the perfection stops there as once you start loading up speed strips and speed loaders, the numbers fall apart. You could carry two 5-round speed loaders and a 8-round speed strip from TUFF leaving 2 rounds in a second box. It's not unusual for me to have that speed strip in a pocket with that rifle.
What made the Remington load so interesting was a video a came across on YouTube.
What made me like this is at how short of a range the bullet did a good job holding together at the higher velocities. While some of the bullet's weight was shed, the bullet's expanded diameter stayed large at .5 inch and continued to penetrate into the 18 inch range. I was impressed then. I later referenced the companion revolver video finding that the bullet did even better from a 4 inch barrel. Simply put, from a common revolver length barrel, the velocities around 1300 fps net around 19 inches worth of penetration while expanding to half an inch or so. Eventually, I found the Lucky Gunner also tested this load in their ammo test series and got similar results from the 4 inch test gun they used. Ultimately, the 1300 fps velocity with 19 inches of penetration and great expansion is confirmed with with corroborating data to support this load as being a good choice for what I have in mind. Additionally, Lucky Gunner tested a 2 inch barrel with great expansion results and around 14 inches of penetration at 1117 fps. There are other people who have done similar testing with similar results.
Going over all the available data, my rifle pushes these 158 grain bullets to 1796 fps per my Caldwell chronograph. With a BC reported by Remington of 0.145, 1300 fps lands at the 116 yard mark. In another test I found, the 1241 fps mark shows that we would still have great penetration at around 135 yards which is about 3.45 inches below point of aim when zeroed at 100 yards. For hunting, I think this stacks up very well but for self-defense, the lower velocity of 1117 fps is achieved at 181 yards and may not have enough penetration to be effective on whitetail. That indicates that the rifle could function for defensive purposes at much longer distances if needed. If I stick with focusing on the penetration depths, the 1241 fps still achieves +18 inches worth of penetration in gel. If we split the difference between 1241 and 1117 for 1179 fps and split the difference between 14 inches of penetration and 20 inches from that test at 1241 fps, we end up with 1179 fps achieving around 17 inches of penetration. This is extrapolated and therefore unproven but I figure that's fine for whitetail with broadside shots with what I think should be a hard minimum being around 16 inches. That's a top I want to research more. Getting back to the numbers, the calculator puts 1179 fps around 155 yards. In my 30-30 vs .357 article, I had similar numbers, close, but they weren't as precise. I may have forgotten to include some of the thought processing to get you the reader to where I got.
As it were, if my numbers are correct, 155 yards is still quite the feat for a small pistol caliber rifle but I maintain that someone could have a setup with a Marlin 1894 Classic and a good scope with the correct zero and take full advantage of this Remington HTP load for most of their hunting. Interestingly, while writing this, I found a study done by the South Carolina DNR that concluded that 132 yards was the average distance a shot was taken. Our rifle setup coves that and more. That said, I'm not convinced the Remington load is great for hunting with a typical revolver. If we accept my 1179 fps as the minimum acceptable velocity for expansion and penetration on a whitetail deer, a 4 inch barrel will achieve that velocity around 38 yards if we get 1300 fps. If you are hunting in shorter distances from a stand or a blind, you might find this works just well enough for your purposes. Maybe it would be fine. Ultimately, I wish I could find more 2 inch barrel tests using the HTP load to find out if I am correct. I would test it myself but I only have the 3 inch 605.
While I could use the HTP for handgun hunting, I would feel better using another bullet, the Hornady XTP. Using the same methodology for assessing performance, the XTP seems to expand just a little less but penetrates much more. Additionally, it does so with a lower velocity envelope. I am currently in the process of developing my own handload using the 158 grain XTP and H110 specifically for handgun hunting and I suspect the rifle performance will do very well. Personally, I don't know that once I have a suitable load for the XTP, that I will make the complete switch from the Remington factory load over to the XTP based handload for daily use. I have a rather ample supply of the Remington HTP load and the distances observed in my deer hunting are met with the HTP. At the current rate of consumption that I am successfully taking deer, a sizable percentage of my stock could result in around 200 deer taken. I suspect that's a life time of deer. I should go shoot more.
Getting back to the topic of generalization, instead of specialization, the HTP does a great job. We see in the gel testing that the 158 gr SJHP achieves between 14 inches and 20 inches in common concealed carry type revolvers. For some people, the 18 inch maximum for self defense loads is a hard stop. If that's you, you may want to stick with the 2 inch barrel. I still think the 3 inch is just about perfect. It gives me a little higher performance for outdoors defense but it's still small enough to conceal. Interestingly, the over all size of the 605 Defender 3 inch is about the exact same as my P365XL with just a little barrel length poking out. I find that to be a practical size for everyday carry.
So far, in everything I have covered, I have solely relied on the Remington HTP to do everything from self defense to putting food on the table. What I don't want people to think is that there is only one way. Clearly that's just not true and in practice, it's not necessary. The firearms capable of running .357 mag can also handle .38 Special. Instead of using full power .357 Mag for self-defense and only sticking with one thing, it's reasonable for someone to use a great .38 Special load in their carry revolver and have a fantastic magnum load for the rifle. I would still recommend that whatever revolver you purchase be chambered for the same as your rifle but your choice of ammunition is your own.
Outside of the Remington SJHP and the Hornady XTP, there are a few rounds that could do well that I haven't verified through cross-referencing. Target Suite on YouTube tested a variety of loads in 2024 and found that three JSP loads work very well from a rifle. Since I am unable to find pistol velocities for these loads that confirm expansion and penetration. The Barnes 180 grain Pioneer load is interesting in that if the advertised pistol velocity still expands and drives deep, the Pioneer load could be a better choice as it could still function out to the 165 yard range. I can't find enough information to make an educated guess on the Federal HammerDown load. The Federal American Eagle JSP has been tested by some folks from revolvers but I have not seen where a barrel length long enough from a handgun actually got good expansion and should be limited to longer barrels, though I can't say for sure what that minimum length would be. It's possible they would still work in a Mare's Leg at shorter distance.
What I am trying to highlight here is that you could have a good load for the rifle and a different load for the revolver that could still be interchangeable but may not function optimally beyond putting a 36 caliber hole into something.
Beyond self defense and sporting applications, the .357 Magnum and by proxy the .38 Special, has proven to be a good platform for target sports. By rolling a third pistol into the mix would allow for Bullseye or a similar sport. Alternatively, Cowboy Action with a pair of single action .357's and your lever action, plus a shotgun, allows for a fun ecosystem inline with my current configuration.
In summary, my basis for the .357 Magnum cartridge being such a good choice for the candidate of General Purpose relies heavily on the ballistic gelatin testing parameters and a ballistic calculator to prove it on paper. In the real world, the results are turning out to be pretty good. My first attempt at taking a whitetail back in 2023 was successful and so far, the subsequent years, I haven't hunted with anything else. While I have aspirations of hunting with other projects, I keep going for my Marlin rifle.
I've toyed with the idea of purchasing a new Ruger made Marlin 1894 Classic with the 18 inch barrel to see if any velocity is picked up compared to my 16 inch but I don't have much room at the moment to justify spending the $1000 needed to buy such a rifle. This is especially true when my 16 inch CST does what I need it to from a general purpose perspective. Maybe I can justify it for Cowboy Action with a pair of Vaqueros or Taurus Deputies. I already have the side by side.
As it sits right now, I have not been able to realize a better cartridge that matches the .357 Magnum's practical applications like I have highlights above. I suspect the 10mm Auto could be configured to achieve similar results but for the semi-auto firearms available. As of now, I haven't confirmed it yet. I'm currently leaning to a CMMG Banshee rifle with a Glock 29 combination and some unverified load for 10mm will be just the ticket to achieve this goal. Even if I am successful with the 10mm, the .357 Magnum looks poised to just do the job better over all. There is, however, a curveball. Something for you to think about. I have one parting piece I want to throw out. Just as in Star Wars, as Master Yoda said "there is another." The .327 Federal Magnum. What happens when we stuff that into a Henry Big Boy 327?
Stay tuned to see what I find next.
Source Citations
South Carolina DNR Study - https://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html
Guns Magazine Citation - I am unable to post the Guns Magazine link because Google says that their domain is unsafe which triggered a Community Guidelines take down. I have removed the URL but if you want the source, you can find it in the January 1956 publication of the periodical.
As I usually do, I revisit topics I had previous spent much time thinking on and extrapolate further into the concept. In the .357 Magnum hunting concept, I have gone over a growing general interest in the cartridge and later comparing it to .30-30 as well. Then in 2023, I put the thoughts I had to the test and successfully harvested a doe which you can read about here. I would recommend reading the two linked articles as a baseline for the thoughts laid out below. The third article satisfies my desire to prove what I write about. It's not just enough to think it through, I want to execute that idea to see if it's viable. So far, the .357 Magnum topic has been my most successful venture to date. I intend to continue to see that through, however.
The most recent expansion on the idea is to verify ammunition choices for the hunting application. It started with questioning what I know about cast bullets, which is very little, and if the 358439 hollow point bullet would be sufficient for taking of whitetail deer. It very well may be but I'm not convinced that it will perform the way I think it will. If I understand correctly, I will need to adjust the bullet's lead alloy to match the velocity. Softer lead will need less velocity. My concern came about after considering the velocities for a cast bullet from GT Bullets. If I over drive the bullet, they could over expand and come part. The shank may continue to punch through but it might be the only thing that does. I would like to avoid that if I can. I want expansion and penetration of the whole expanded bullet and not just a small diameter part. For a demonstration what I mean, I recommend the 38 Special/357 Magnum cast bullet video series by Loads of Bacon on YouTube.
If my concerns are valid, I would likely see the cast 358439 LSWCHP basically explode on penetration with the deer if the alloy is too soft. While chunks of lead would spread outward in a cone shape, I don't consider this ideal even if it is mortally wounding. The next big issue I have is sorting out which alloy to use based on the use case of hunting out to 125 yards. I like the velocity of 1700 fps as a minimum for trajectory reasons but the velocity difference between 25 yards and 105 yards from a 16 inch barrel rifle is large. Tuning the bullet's alloy to match the 100 yard distance may cause the short range performance to suffer. As a result of these thoughts, I started to consider whether I should investigate the original bullet mold, the Lyman 358429.
By moving to the flat nose design, instead of the HP, I may be able to improve the perceived integrity issue. Once again, by tuning the alloy, I should still get expansion but keep integrity. I might not get as much expansion, however. Basically a JSP with out the jacket.
In the end, I won't know until I start experimenting with cast bullets beyond what I have been doing.
All that said, it led me down a rabbit hole of what ammunition does work for hunting. Previously, I had identified that the Remington HTP 158 grain semi-jacketed hollow point based load and the Hornady Custom 158 grain XTP based load should have been among the best for the application. During that investigation, I had discarded the jacketed soft point in general for hunting as I couldn't verify the lowest velocity needed for expansion. Simply put, a JSP fired from a typical revolver barrel is not moving fast enough to expand in any meaningful way. When fired from a rifle, the bullets may still expand but the question of at what distance does this still work remains. This has been found to be true by various individuals and a person with rudimentary internet searching skills can find the revolver JSP tests.
I started going back looking for data to see how the JSP's actually do from rifles. There are a few people of have done testing plus anecdotal data of people who actually hunt with them being successful.
After my research, I stand by my original choices of the hollow point bullets but I have softened on the JSP's from a rifle. I still haven't been able to validate minimum velocities for the choices on the market but I suspect that 75 yards for most of the inexpensive ones is probably fine. The Federal HammerDown load is figure is probably good for 100 yards assuming that Federal engineered them for 100 yards just as they do for the rest of their hunting ammo. The cheaper stuff might be good for 100 yards but I can't prove it just yet.
I've also found that the Barnes XPB 140 grain copper hollow point should work well down range. It might not survive up-close shots but should be fine outside 50 yards. It may also work well from a revolver.
In the end, there is definitely a wider world of useable bullets for hunting using the .357 Magnum caliber. While most of them I don't have a data set large enough to show solid proof of efficacy like I do with the HTP and XTP, what data is available hints that there is much more to learn about and test. I don't know if I will be able to start getting into ballistic gel testing anytime soon but I want to. I want to answer what bullets work at 100 yards from a .357 magnum rifle. I want at least 17 inches of penetration and around 1/2 inch of expansion that stays together.
I love the application of what I have started calling the General Purpose cartridge. It started with the .357 Magnum setup I have with my Marlin 1894 CST, the Taurus 605 Defender and the Remington HTP 158 grain SJHP load. The revolver for defense that meets the FBI testing in ballistic gel with a rifle that can take a deer at 100 yards and do it all from 1 box of ammo.
It has a very practical nature to it but I just can't shake the fact that modern, semi-auto firearms are the norm. I almost never actually carry the Taurus but I do carry my SIG P365XL. I would like to try to duplicate the same capabilities but in modern platforms. A general purpose cartridge for both semi-auto rifle and carry pistol that can take a whitetail from at least 100 yards from the rifle and small enough pistol for concealed carry. All from one box of ammo. The Marlin rifle and Taurus pistol do that but I want it in semi-auto. I will add one more requirement; the guns use the same magazines. Looks like it'll be a Glock. I just need to figure out what cartridge and load to use.
While technically, .357 Mag can be used from a semi-auto, there are very few guns like that. The Coonan .357 is proof that it works but no one makes a semi-auto rifle. I don't care about the Desert Eagle in .357 mag. In this instance, we need to build or select our cartridge for the application. I don't want something proprietary, unless it's .357 Mag Rimless. And no, .357 SIG just is not the same even if Federal's 125 grain HST is impressive.
Below, I go over the direction I would take if I ever get to make this work, however, there are new technologies that are becoming available that have been around a while. After SHOT Show 2025 and specifically Federal's new 7mm Backcountry has come out, I suspect my idea could be rolled up into a brand new cartridge that I will conceptualize below.
Current Options:
I'm open to options such as .45 ACP or .357 SIG but I suspect that a .40 cal will be the best choice. As I do research, 10mm Auto should have the case capacity, pressure rating and commercial support to make this work. There might also be an option for .40 S&W. To make the 10mm work, I will need to test the different loads or find any data available on the internet to see if I can extrapolate. The rifle velocities are the hardest to find.
So far a combination of data from BBTI on the Hornady 200 grain XTP and YouTube videos shows that the 200 grain XTP can do the job. A 16 inch barrel should net around 1260 FPS per BBTI which results in a velocity of 1075 fps around 100 yards. The question that needs answered is if the 200 grain XTP open reliably and penetrate deep enough at a velocity of 1050 fps. Another problem is that Hornady stopped making the 200 grain XTP some time ago. They do still make the 180 grain so that's the most likely starting point.
There are several manufacturers such as Underwood that use the 180 grain XTP and it might be possible to find a factory load that does what I am looking for.
Handloading could achieve this pretty handily. I found a spreadsheet of testing done with 10mm loads using Accurate #9 and 180 grain XTPs. It also has 16 inch barrel data in it. The lowest possible load listed was 12.2 grains of #9. From a rifle, this person says they got 1339 fps from their rifle. This is actually higher than our hypothetical need of 1250. That could give us some wiggle room on the bottom end. That would get us 1088 at 100 yards for the rifle.
Pistol data has been easier to find. The mid 13 grain charges of #9 from full size pistols appear to be 1200 and similar. I would bet those would be very snappy in a little Glock 29. Mid 13 grains would be around 1470 per the spreadsheet. That's more than we need so we could back that down. Comparing the anecdotal data to the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center shows #9 from a 5 inch test barrel is 12.2 gr at 1093 fps and 13.5 gr moving at 1242 fps. That seems to line up nicely.
I won't necessarily run Accurate #9 but it's more of a demonstrator what velocities we can achieve with 10mm and 180 grain XTPs. It also gives us reference levels.
At this point, we need to find a factory load that does as good or better than the 12.2 grain #9 load from a Glock Model 29. I'm choosing the 29 because it's turnkey solution that's easily available. Springfield's XD-M also has an optics ready subcompact, so that's an option but good luck finding a rifle with a magazine to match it. Same goes for the S&W option.
For factory loads, the Hornady Custom (#9126) looks like it could fit the bill.
Finding YouTube videos of gel testing from handguns isn't all that hard to find. Lucky Gunner has testing data that seems to match what TNOutdoors9 found, so we have corroborating data. They even had similar penetration levels of just under 17 inches in gel with denim. That should be enough for deer on a broadside shot.
To answer the previous question of minimum data we have is that 1150 fps is a confirmed good velocity. I don't know if the hypothetical of 1050 fps is valid. The lowest velocity I can find at this time has been 1144 fps from the Hornady load.
Since I can't seem to find rifle data for the Hornady factory load, I think we can extrapolate the 16 barrel velocity. BBTI shows that all the heavier loads are picking up around 200 fps from the 4 inch barrel to the 16 inch barrel. If we take the 1150 fps and add 200 fps, we should be getting around 1350 fps which isn't outside the realm of possibilities based on the numbers seen with BBTI as well as the spreadsheet I found. In fact, that's pretty conservative in the loading The spreadsheet says that would be around 12.5 grains of Accurate #9 with the 180 grain XTP.
At this point, this is starting to look very achievable with commercial, off the shelf stuff. Let's just run that through a calculator just to make sure.
100 yard zero with an AR pattern rifle using an HOB of 2.6 inches.
The chart says that with a 1350 fps muzzle velocity from a 16 inch barrel with a BC of 0.164, we are going to see the lowest confirmed velocity of 1144 fps at 75 yards. At 100 yards, we are seeing 1093 fps. I do like that at 60 yards, we're less than 2 inches high with an AR height-over-bore of 2.6 inch zeroed at 100 yards.
Underwood 180 gr XTP is advertised as 1300 fps from a pistol barrel but testing seems to indicate that it's right about the same as the Hornady with common pistols like the G20.
If we use 1150 fps as our hard minimum needed for expansion and penetration, a handload netting 1450 fps from a rifle barrel will get us to that minimum at 100 yards.
Interestingly, if we extrapolate more data from the spreadsheet and compare to the RLDC, 1450 fps would be very close to 13.5 grains of Accurate #9 or so which is the max charge weight.
Simply put, with handloads, this exercise is completely achievable with existing products.
As an aside, I ran through the exercise again but for .357 SIG for fun. I found that the Speer Gold Dot load was used for testing of an Aero Survival Rifle by TNW. They got 1800 fps average or so from the rifle. Lucky Gunner got high 1300's in their testing with 18 inches of penetration in gel from a pistol. I want to note that I spent hours on the above 10mm exercise comparing every shred of data I could find. It's some what annoying that in less than 5 minutes, I was able to confirm that the Speer Gold Dot load can do what we want. The only issue that would need to be confirmed is if .357 SIG at 100 yards is accurate enough for deer. I would also like to note that I think the .40 S&W Federal 180 grain HST, I suspect could be used as well but I need the rifle velocity data and I don't see that anywhere.
I would also like to add that Lucky Gunner did a 100 yard ammo test from handguns years ago. They had a hard time doing it but several of the loads such as the .45 ACP HST and 147 grain 9mm HST opened up and penetrated in the 100 yard target. This would indicate that both the 9mm and 45 ACP cartridges can be used for this roll as well with the correct cartridges.
Future:
What if we took .357 Magnum and stuffed it into a new case that completely duplicated the performance but in a shorter, higher pressure case? A case short enough that we can put it into a modern pistol and high enough pressure to drive a 158 grain bullet to take a deer at 125 yards. I've been wanting to float this idea to a manufacturer for several months now.
Federal released a new cartridge based off of technology that allows for what is considered to be much higher chamber pressure by contemporary standards but still safely operate in what could be considered standard rifles. See 7mm Backcountry.
My thought is what I will call 9mm General Purpose or .357 Automatic. I'm not a ballistian but I'm thinking about taking something like .30 Super Carry and ballooning out the case to 9mm. There might have to be changes to the case length. Increase the chamber pressure. I don't know what we would need to drive a 158 grain bullet out to 100 yards from a 16 inch barrel and still get 1360 FPS. This matches what I get from my current setup. I figure Federal's new case metal would likely be a good choice.
The bullet needs to be engineered so that from whatever handgun launches it still gets enough velocity to achieve FBI standards in ballistic gel from short range and meet and exceed 18 inches in gel at 125 yards.
I'm trying to reach out to a few manufacturers to talk about it and see what comes from it.
Here's the link to the spreadsheet for the 10mm handloads and rifle velocities
Update FEB 2025: I found someone had started comparing factory loads using a Ruger LC Carbine in 10mm. One of the loads was Federal's Punch with a 200 grain bullet. They also tested the SIG 180 Grain FMJ. The Federal load is found to work well from a Glock 20 and get good expansion and penetration. Sadly, the Federal load wasn't moving fast enough to get a confirmable velocity via calculator for 100 yards. The Federal load is in the 900's at that distance and may not expand. The SIG 180 grain load got around 1500 FPS from the rifle which puts the velocity around 1196 at 100 yards. The lowest velocity seen during expansion testing is mid 1100 which means that the SIG V-Crown 180 grain JHP is very likely our starting point for testing as the rifle velocity is fast enough for 100 yards and the load still works well in pistols. I think we have a winner.
Update MAR 2025: I continued to do research, as you can expect I will do, and found that the Buffalo Bore load 21B, is my first selection for this. First is that the load is pushing high 1600 FPS from a 16 inch barrel based on testing I've found from TNW. Additional testing shows that from a Glock Model 20, the bullets expand in the 1300 FPS range which lands right around 100 yards from the 16 inch barrel. Recently, Smith and Wesson released a 10mm version of their folding rifle with street prices being under $600. If that rifle is decently accurate at 100 yards, say 3 inch groups or better, then I think we have a setup; S&W's FPC in 10mm, an M&P 10mm Compact 4.0 and Buffalo Bore's 21B load with a spare magazine should be pretty darn close. Too bad Kel-Tec doesn't do a SUB2000 10mm that uses Glock mags.
Update APR 2025: Kel-Tec has announced they will have the SUB2000 in 10mm this year that uses Glock 20 magazines.
October 21 is the opening day for the deer rifle season here in Georgia. I've been going over what build I want to try out this year. Last year was the Marlin 1894 CST in 357 Magnum which went great but I only got one doe with it. Part of the limiting factors for last year were surgery and other IVF related things. This year will be different. We will have a baby to take care of. I still have builds and ammunition choices I want to test out but I'm not sure if I will have time so I'm trying to sort out where to start.
Last year, I got three setups finished and zeroed in preparation of the baby girl getting here and not having the money to spend on the projects. First was the updated load selection for the Remington 700 .300 Blackout build. In 2022, I made a successful hunt using the Hornady 190 grain SUB-X loads. I changed to a custom ordered solid copper, hollow point subsonic load from Discreet Ballistics. I want to know if they will be effective on the whitetail here in GA. Sadly, they are running just a little too fast to be truly subsonic from my setup. I can still test the effectiveness of those wild, Machined Expander hollow points. I had actually made some changes to the stock by replacing it with an AR pistol buffer tube and adapter for my niece so she should go out with the rifle. She's a little small for the JMAC Customs stock but the buffer tube with a foam cheek rest let her get behind the scope with the rifle mounted in a tripod. She didn't get anything so I put the stock back on.
I like the idea of confirming if these bullets work well or not so that puts the Remington 700 in .300 BLK as our first option.
Next is the WWSD Hunter .300 Blackout build with the SIG 120 grain copper hollow points. The WWSD was originally chambered for .350 Legend but I ran into several issues at the same time and chose to rebarrel for .300 Blackout. The replacement SIG Romeo5 red dot and the Juliet 3X magnifier would more or less, make the WWSD AR-15 build a General Purpose rifle than a hunting rifle. However, given the lightweight construction and materials used in the WWSD concept, having a rifle this light can be very handy.
After finishing the build, I zeroed the rifle for 50 yards and confirmed velocities around 2400 fps. That should put the bullet around three inches down at 200 yards. That said, I don't know for sure what the minimum velocity is for those bullets to expand is and the lowest number I had been able to locate was around 2000 fps. The chart shows that I should expect around 150 yards to hit that 2000 fps mark. If all of that is accurate, the WWSD Hunter 300 Blackout should be a 150 yard hunting rifle.
That said, should is a big word and the only way to know for sure is to get out there a bag deer. Seeing as I have already taken deer with the Remington 700, I'm inclined to take out the AR-15 this time to get in-field time with the rifle.
With the silencer attached, the WWSD AR-15 is under 9 lbs
Finally, the Taurus 66 with the Burris Fastfire 3 and the Hornady Custom XTP 158 grain loads. Last year, I was able to get the Fastfire to mount up with a cheap mount I found on the internet. I zeroed it for around 25 yards and should still be good for around 75 yards based on metrics gathered from various sources on the internet from gel testing. The game plan for the Model 66 is to carry it around with me during the deer season while I'm doing chores. If a deer shows up then I will take the opportunity to bag it.
The 66 is my first foray into the world of handgun hunting. It was originally meant for bear defense while hiking trails around Appalachia. I don't hike anymore being on the South side of Atlanta since there just aren't that many good trails. None of the trails are likely to have bear down this far. Getting North of Atlanta takes at least an hour on it's own to get around I-285 so it's just not worth the headache to drive the 2 hours to Dahlonega and further. I sure do miss the mountains.
Anyway, with the Model 66 setup and zeroed. It's no extra effort to carry the revolver in place of my P365XL. Because of it being easy to carry, I guarantee it will be out with me on the farm from 21 OCT to 14 JAN 2025.
Originally, the 66 had an adjustable rear sight which should have been fine but I wanted to see if anyone made a red dot mount. Just for fun, I ordered one and it showed up. It took some doing but I was able to beat the mount and pins into submission and test fit the 8 MOA Burris FastFire 3 I had on my turkey Remington 870. Seeing as how I am rather familiar with red dots, I figured it would make getting into handgun hunting much easier. I have a very limited supply of .357 Magnum and practicing to make 75 yard shots with iron sights takes time and ammo. This helps mitigate training needs for now. I will likely switch the dot back to the 870 and put the irons back on. That 8 MOA dot is just huge for what I'm trying to do.
Ignore the butcher job I did on the holster to make the red dot fit. I'll clean it up some day.
Finally, I could continue on with the Marlin 1894 CST in .357 Magnum. I have come to enjoy that rifle and I like the idea behind continuing to prove that my setup and selection process do actually work.
For the bonus option, if I feel like it, the Winchester 94 is back in action and ready for work. Mostly. I was able to get the rifle out to the range and zeroed with 170 grain JSPs. The open sights are good to go with the Turnbull Restoration red dot mount ready if I want to go that route. The only red dot I have available is on the Henry 22 for the moment but at 50 yards. The iron sights should be fine. That could be a fun option especially if I get to go out on an invited hunt with someone this year.
There you have it. The many options for hunting that I can choose. Depending on how aggressive I am this year and what opportunities present themselves, I can take all of these out over the season.
Since I've been on a kick lately on stuffing Triple Seven into whatever case, I figure that maybe I should try .357 Magnum and .38 Special. I would very much like to try it with my favorite 160 grain bullets to see how those work from a .38 Special case. I will need to figure out what bullet to use with the .357 Magnum case since the crimp grove makes things tricky. If I do though, the result is more velocity.
So far, it looks like a safe load of Triple Seven is around 25 grains by volume using a .38 Special case and around 30 gr in a .357 Magnum case. Both of these appear to be in compression but I will need to confirm with the correct bullets. Instead of the 105 grain cast bullets I have, I'm thinking about finding some generic 158 grain LSWC.
The original load of 38 Special black powder was a 21.5 grains by volume of FFFg and a 158 grain bullet. So I've already got a hotter load. A 6 inch barrel revolver should get us somewhere around 950 fps. Finding reliable data for rifle data has been a little tricky. Someone had posted they tested a black powder load from a rifle that was around 1230 fps. I ran that number through a calculator and found that the velocity would be at 1000 fps at around 108 yards. With the correct lead alloy, I think we can make the short range work. I suspect that a soft lead alloy with a BHN around 5 to 6 would be around what we're looking for if we still want to be able to have expanding hollow points from my Lyman mold at distances under 100 yards. This will be a very short range setup.
A 357 Magnum case holds more powder, so I figure I can add a few fps to that rifle data. What could really help is a new mold that has a crimp groove setup for 357 Magnum instead of 38 Special but I can work on that later. I have a few of the 160 grain bullets from GT Bullets that I found in a box, I figure I can load up a few 38 Special cases and try to get velocity data from the Marlin 1894 CST.
Update: I loaded a few 160 grain cast HP bullets over 23 grains by volume into .38 Special cases for testing. I could only make 5 since I only have enough bullets to make that work but from my rifle with 23 grains by volume, I got 1245 FPS from my 1894 with a 16 inch barrel over my chronograph. I don't think I did a good job making them and would like to try again.
Tomorrow is the start of the Georgia rifle season for deer. I had concerns that I wouldn't be able to make it at all due to IVF related activities. As it turns out, I will be able to go but just a little late. I will still be the one to provide my wife the twice daily injections but we won't be starting the retrieval process this week. That means I'm not bed-ridden. Most likely, the retrieval will be next week. In fact, as I type this, we are waiting on the results for the most recent doctor's appointment my wife went to to see how she's progressing.
The whole process has been incredible. At the beginning of the week, we had only seen 5 uterus follicles doing their thing but on the Wednesday checkup, the number had grown to 8 with a few maturing nicely. We're pending the results of the Friday checkup now.
This is all such a huge blessing and I would happily trade a whole season of hunting for a family of my own. If we do the retrieval next week, I will down for 3 days and prohibited from heavy lifting for a total of 2 weeks. That will make getting a deer onto the cargo carrier I use tricky. I'm hoping I can get something this weekend so I don't have to think about it while I'm down.
I'm anxious to get out there. I'm taking my Marlin 1894 CST and the Taurus 66 both in .357 Magnum. I've got 3 spots on the Little Farm picked out for this year. I setup a stand overlooking the pond along with a natural blind next to it, a sitting spot tucked back into the woods where I know there's an active trail and finally my spot last year overlooking the bedding area where we see them. I forgot to set out my blind there along with corn and apples. I'm thinking this year, I want to work the back stretch but we'll see how this plays out. The weather is expected to be warm this weekend; in the mid 70's. Not exactly great but a least I won't be cold.
On another note, I have a Springfield Armory 1911 TRP made back in 2002 that has Novak LoProfile tritium sights. I had bought it around 2009 used. I've been able to make accurate shots with it before but set it down on Monday. I was able to easily land 7 rounds in a 6 inch space around 25 paces from a bag. I've ordered a replacement adjustable rear sight after talking with Mike from Novak Sights. I had wanted to see what adjustable sights they had to push the distance from 25 yards point of impact to around 45 yards. I'm hoping to be able to use this 1911 as a target pistol along with something I can try to take a deer with. We shall see how that goes. The UMC Remington 230 JHP should do the job.
Additionally, I got a new book. Elmer Keith's "Hell, I Was There" has been on my wish list for a while now. Knowing that I wouldn't be able to go do anything, my wonderful wife let me buy a copy to read while I'm stuck on the couch after my half of the IVF retrieval. I'm looking forward to reading it through. Mr. Keith's been gone since the 70's but he's doing a good job on selling me on both handgun hunting and .44 Magnum.
I'll come back and edit this once we hear from the doctor's office about the wife's process. God is so great.
Update: We are holding at 8 follicles at this time with what looks like around 3 at or close to the mature level. I don't know anything about this subject but I took a guesstimation on projection. The nurse said we have another appointment on Monday and most likely will give the trigger shot to start the retrieval on Monday. We don't know for sure but that's the current estimate the doctor's office gave us. If that's the case, I'm praying that we have around 5 matured follicles ready to release an egg by next week with the current growth rate. It does appear that retrieval will be next week though a little later than expected.
I've been on a slow quest to learn about loading 357 Magnum and 38 Special. My next steps are to start learning about casting my own lead bullets. One of the ideas I've had is how can you get those cast bullets to perform with black powder and black powder substitutes for the purpose of hunting. 357 Mag cases can run black powder but the performance is fairly low.
38-55 Winchester is an old cartridge from way back in the 1880's but it uses a larger .37 caliber bullet instead of the .358 inch bullets used by the 38 In-Name-Only 38 Special and .357 Magnum. What specs I have found show that 360 Buckhammer is using a .358 bullet. I've also seen .359 inch. Note that between 38-55 and 360 BKHM, the old Winchester case is much longer at 53mm where the 360 is 46mm.
My thought is, depending on the diameter of the barrels and the diameter of the bullets as they drop from a mold, a person could load those cast bullets into a 360 BKHM case. If you adjust the alloy to make harder and softer bullets, you can download the cases with smokeless (like Trailboss) or use black powder or a substitute like Triple Seven or Blackhorn 209. What little data I have found on old 38-55 loads uses a 255 grain bullet with black pushing it around 1200 to 1300 fps. A softer alloy can easily get cast bullets to expand at those velocities.
I have two molds. One is a 200 grain flat nose from Lee (358-200-RF) and a Lyman 155 gr Keith hollow point. I expect that the lighter weight 155 gr bullets might be moving too fast given that we're 100 grains lighter. That said, a harder lead alloy and sufficient lube should help keep barrel leading down while giving you good expansion. That could make for a great deer slayer.
It could be the barrels would need a .359 diameter bullet instead of a cast .358 but I don't know just yet since the cartridge is so new. I don't want to spend a bunch of money on another lever action so I'd wait to see if someone came out with a single shot.
The question boils down to why. Why would this matter? Well, really it's just a function of using the molds I already have to make bullets that work in several guns. It also means I can load those bullets into a cartridge gun for hunting using various powders. It would also help in situations where smokeless powder isn't available for logistical reasons but BP substitute or just BP is available.
