In 2024, I made my first attempt at handgun hunting and it did not go well. In the article I wrote covered everything, including a plan to correct my failures. The primary steps I need to take are practice and more practice. To practice, you need ammunition and in this economy, .357 Magnum is not cheap. Thankfully, components are relatively inexpensive. I acquired 200 of the 158 grain version of Hornady's XTP along with a bottle of H110.
The first set of handloads started with load data at 16.2 grains and worked up to 16.7 grains increasing by .1 increments. I skipped 16.4 grains resulting in a total of 50 rounds loaded up for velocity testing. After having them sit around for about a month, the only day I had a chance to do anything was a rainy Saturday that I needed to use for mowing the Little Farm. Once I was tired of being soaked on the tractor, I setup my Caldwell chronograph under the tailgate of my 4Runner. After stepping back some distance, I began the testing with my Taurus 66 with 4 inch barrel.
Hornady XTP 158 grain with H110
16.2 - 1151 fps - ES 95
16.3 - 1199 fps - ES 114
16.5 - 1210 fps - ES 49
16.6 - 1226 fps - ES 43
16.7 - 1276 fps - ES 71 (there is an outlier of 1237 that if removed I get 50 fps for the ES which is better)
None of the loads had what I think are excellent extreme spreads but they were worse with the lesser loads. I also had some trouble with getting readings on some of the loads. I don't know if my chronograph is working well or calibrated correctly but I did some additional testing with a factory load I had on hand, the Remington HTP 158 grain SJHP.
Remington HTP 158 grain SJHP
1373 fps - ES 46
Seeing those numbers for the HTP absolutely surprised me. So much so that I am questioning the accuracy of my chronograph. Every test I have seen of the Remington ammunition from a 4 inch barrel is usually in the high 1200 fps with some being low 1300s but to be 70+ fps higher than any other tests concerns me. That said, it does highlight that right now, it might be better for me to zero my red dot for the HTPs and practice with the XTPs.
Looking over the numbers for the XTPs and running the 16.6 and 16.7 grain velocities through a ballistic calculator, I find that even the 16.6 grain load should have enough velocity to make it to the 110 yard mark and still expand and penetrate nicely. The HTP should still be good for around 60 or so yards based on minimum velocity thresholds I use for each. I use 1044 fps for the XTP and around 1190 for the HTP which these are based off of data collected from testing seen around the Internet. If you add some velocity for error, we still have some good useable distance. Based on performance from the 2024 hunt, I think I will limit myself to 50 yards as best I can so either loads should work fine. Additionally, this works nicely as the gun club I have a membership with has a 50 yard range that I can do this sort of thing with.
I had figured that I would be most interested in the higher end of the load data anyway so next steps will be to load up additional strings of both the 16.6 and 16.7 grain versions. I'm thinking around 25 of each. This will allow for additional velocity testing along with some beginning accuracy testing and it uses up the last 50 bullets in the first Hornady box and last of the CCI primer box I have to match. I also have a few of the factory Hornady Custom with the same bullets that I want to run over the chronograph as a baseline. Next time I go out, I will try to test on a sunny day instead of slapping together something.
Regarding a topic that I've gone over quite a few times, I attempted to go back in my writings and find where I laid out my complete execution of deploying the .357 Magnum cartridge along with selected factory loading in what I call the General Purpose concept. Other people have called this the Universal Cartridge. The idea is simple, a cartridge where your sidearm and rifle use the same ammunition. I know under "357 Magnum - My New Love Affair and a Cartridge for Many Guns" I give some coverage to the idea and that in other articles I discus the utility, but I don't remember where I truly sat down and provided the full details as to why I have come to regard, at least currently, the .357 Magnum cartridge as the ultimate, practical expression of the idea.
Over the years, I have seen people refer to this idea with different names; Perfect Pairs by IraqVeteran8888, The Universal Cartridge by both Duelist1954 and InRangeTV. I've read it as "The Two-Gun Man Comes Back" in the 1956 January edition of Guns Magazine. If you search the internet enough, you'll find numerous discussions on the topic. In any case, the idea tends to be attributed to frontiersman and cowboys wielding repeating rifles such as a Winchester 1873 while packing a revolver in a belt. Both rifle and pistol are chambered for something such as 44-40 though the idea has been seen as far back as the .44 Henry. The intent is to keep logistics to a minimum. Today, with our improved powders and engineered bullets, this idea becomes more and more useful.
Originally, I had planned on the .45 Colt cartridge being that for me, however, it morphed into the .357 Magnum after several years of buying and selling off select firearms. The .357 Magnums stayed and the .45 Colts went. Personally, I think that was simply because I bought the wrong .45 Colts. I know many people would argue that the .44 Magnum and .41 Magnum cartridges will do all these things and I accept that as true. Ultimately, what has sold me on the .357 Magnum as the king of the Universal Cartridges is concealed carry. The larger cartridges just don't have small guns chambered for them. Even the Smith and Wesson 69 isn't all that small being an L-frame. I don't know how big the Taurus 415 is but I suspect it's about the same size as an K/L frame.
Historically, concealed carry has played an important roll in my life. That's probably an understatement. The ability to properly conceal a firearm for self defense is a major factor in today's society. Open carry of a large revolver doesn't play nicely in the urban sprawls that are dominating regions. There is a reason the name Charlanta has become a thing. The rural spaces between Atlanta and Charlotte are disappearing and are being filled by suburban neighborhoods. It's partly why we moved to South of Atlanta. Even our little section of rural America is being threatened with expansion. The tracts of land are getting smaller and smaller. Thankfully, there is still lots of great space outside of the megaregion here on the East Coast.
Before I go too far, I want to cover what led me down the .357 Magnum path. Back in 2020 and the start of COVID, things had started getting very interesting. Ammunition prices had gone through the roof. I remember seeing a box of Winchester white box 9mm NATO for $45. I usually bought it for $9.99 at most. By 2022, I got very concerned that the world wouldn't hold together and that having a revolver in .357 Magnum was a good idea for logistics reasons. Something I could pair up with my Marlin 1894 CST which I had taken too nicely and a Taurus 66 I had had for many years. Not long before we committed to buying our 19 acre property, what we call the Little Farm, I had found the Taurus 605 Defender. It was an inexpensive stainless steel revolver to match nicely with the stainless steel 1894. I also settled on the Remington HTP 158 grain semi-jacketed hollow point for use in both of those. I think I did a decent job loosely covering the idea the that above article but I think it's time to go over the finer points of what makes this setup just about perfect. More specifically, I want to over over the chosen load and the deployment of that load for general purpose.
I think my favorite aspect of this has been the round count. It wasn't planned like this but a single box of 20 rounds makes the Two-Gun setup ready to go. First up is the Taurus 605. The 605 Defender is a 5 shot, 3 inch stainless steel Brazilian made tool with fixed sights, a radioluminescent front sight and a full underlug for the barrel. The Marlin rifle only holds 8 rounds in the tubular magazine but with the addition of a Mason Leather cartridge cuff, I can hold an additional 7 rounds on the stock. Without a round in the chamber, the rifle has a total of 15 rounds on board in what we will call Cruiser Ready. It's an older police term to describe the carry condition of a long gun. With a single 20 round Remington box, I can load 5 rounds into my revolver and holster it. Next I can load 7 into the cuff and 8 into the rifle's magazine for a grand total of 20 rounds. It's perfect and I very much appreciate it. Sadly, the perfection stops there as once you start loading up speed strips and speed loaders, the numbers fall apart. You could carry two 5-round speed loaders and a 8-round speed strip from TUFF leaving 2 rounds in a second box. It's not unusual for me to have that speed strip in a pocket with that rifle.
What made the Remington load so interesting was a video a came across on YouTube.
What made me like this is at how short of a range the bullet did a good job holding together at the higher velocities. While some of the bullet's weight was shed, the bullet's expanded diameter stayed large at .5 inch and continued to penetrate into the 18 inch range. I was impressed then. I later referenced the companion revolver video finding that the bullet did even better from a 4 inch barrel. Simply put, from a common revolver length barrel, the velocities around 1300 fps net around 19 inches worth of penetration while expanding to half an inch or so. Eventually, I found the Lucky Gunner also tested this load in their ammo test series and got similar results from the 4 inch test gun they used. Ultimately, the 1300 fps velocity with 19 inches of penetration and great expansion is confirmed with with corroborating data to support this load as being a good choice for what I have in mind. Additionally, Lucky Gunner tested a 2 inch barrel with great expansion results and around 14 inches of penetration at 1117 fps. There are other people who have done similar testing with similar results.
Going over all the available data, my rifle pushes these 158 grain bullets to 1796 fps per my Caldwell chronograph. With a BC reported by Remington of 0.145, 1300 fps lands at the 116 yard mark. In another test I found, the 1241 fps mark shows that we would still have great penetration at around 135 yards which is about 3.45 inches below point of aim when zeroed at 100 yards. For hunting, I think this stacks up very well but for self-defense, the lower velocity of 1117 fps is achieved at 181 yards and may not have enough penetration to be effective on whitetail. That indicates that the rifle could function for defensive purposes at much longer distances if needed. If I stick with focusing on the penetration depths, the 1241 fps still achieves +18 inches worth of penetration in gel. If we split the difference between 1241 and 1117 for 1179 fps and split the difference between 14 inches of penetration and 20 inches from that test at 1241 fps, we end up with 1179 fps achieving around 17 inches of penetration. This is extrapolated and therefore unproven but I figure that's fine for whitetail with broadside shots with what I think should be a hard minimum being around 16 inches. That's a top I want to research more. Getting back to the numbers, the calculator puts 1179 fps around 155 yards. In my 30-30 vs .357 article, I had similar numbers, close, but they weren't as precise. I may have forgotten to include some of the thought processing to get you the reader to where I got.
As it were, if my numbers are correct, 155 yards is still quite the feat for a small pistol caliber rifle but I maintain that someone could have a setup with a Marlin 1894 Classic and a good scope with the correct zero and take full advantage of this Remington HTP load for most of their hunting. Interestingly, while writing this, I found a study done by the South Carolina DNR that concluded that 132 yards was the average distance a shot was taken. Our rifle setup coves that and more. That said, I'm not convinced the Remington load is great for hunting with a typical revolver. If we accept my 1179 fps as the minimum acceptable velocity for expansion and penetration on a whitetail deer, a 4 inch barrel will achieve that velocity around 38 yards if we get 1300 fps. If you are hunting in shorter distances from a stand or a blind, you might find this works just well enough for your purposes. Maybe it would be fine. Ultimately, I wish I could find more 2 inch barrel tests using the HTP load to find out if I am correct. I would test it myself but I only have the 3 inch 605.
While I could use the HTP for handgun hunting, I would feel better using another bullet, the Hornady XTP. Using the same methodology for assessing performance, the XTP seems to expand just a little less but penetrates much more. Additionally, it does so with a lower velocity envelope. I am currently in the process of developing my own handload using the 158 grain XTP and H110 specifically for handgun hunting and I suspect the rifle performance will do very well. Personally, I don't know that once I have a suitable load for the XTP, that I will make the complete switch from the Remington factory load over to the XTP based handload for daily use. I have a rather ample supply of the Remington HTP load and the distances observed in my deer hunting are met with the HTP. At the current rate of consumption that I am successfully taking deer, a sizable percentage of my stock could result in around 200 deer taken. I suspect that's a life time of deer. I should go shoot more.
Getting back to the topic of generalization, instead of specialization, the HTP does a great job. We see in the gel testing that the 158 gr SJHP achieves between 14 inches and 20 inches in common concealed carry type revolvers. For some people, the 18 inch maximum for self defense loads is a hard stop. If that's you, you may want to stick with the 2 inch barrel. I still think the 3 inch is just about perfect. It gives me a little higher performance for outdoors defense but it's still small enough to conceal. Interestingly, the over all size of the 605 Defender 3 inch is about the exact same as my P365XL with just a little barrel length poking out. I find that to be a practical size for everyday carry.
So far, in everything I have covered, I have solely relied on the Remington HTP to do everything from self defense to putting food on the table. What I don't want people to think is that there is only one way. Clearly that's just not true and in practice, it's not necessary. The firearms capable of running .357 mag can also handle .38 Special. Instead of using full power .357 Mag for self-defense and only sticking with one thing, it's reasonable for someone to use a great .38 Special load in their carry revolver and have a fantastic magnum load for the rifle. I would still recommend that whatever revolver you purchase be chambered for the same as your rifle but your choice of ammunition is your own.
Outside of the Remington SJHP and the Hornady XTP, there are a few rounds that could do well that I haven't verified through cross-referencing. Target Suite on YouTube tested a variety of loads in 2024 and found that three JSP loads work very well from a rifle. Since I am unable to find pistol velocities for these loads that confirm expansion and penetration. The Barnes 180 grain Pioneer load is interesting in that if the advertised pistol velocity still expands and drives deep, the Pioneer load could be a better choice as it could still function out to the 165 yard range. I can't find enough information to make an educated guess on the Federal HammerDown load. The Federal American Eagle JSP has been tested by some folks from revolvers but I have not seen where a barrel length long enough from a handgun actually got good expansion and should be limited to longer barrels, though I can't say for sure what that minimum length would be. It's possible they would still work in a Mare's Leg at shorter distance.
What I am trying to highlight here is that you could have a good load for the rifle and a different load for the revolver that could still be interchangeable but may not function optimally beyond putting a 36 caliber hole into something.
Beyond self defense and sporting applications, the .357 Magnum and by proxy the .38 Special, has proven to be a good platform for target sports. By rolling a third pistol into the mix would allow for Bullseye or a similar sport. Alternatively, Cowboy Action with a pair of single action .357's and your lever action, plus a shotgun, allows for a fun ecosystem inline with my current configuration.
In summary, my basis for the .357 Magnum cartridge being such a good choice for the candidate of General Purpose relies heavily on the ballistic gelatin testing parameters and a ballistic calculator to prove it on paper. In the real world, the results are turning out to be pretty good. My first attempt at taking a whitetail back in 2023 was successful and so far, the subsequent years, I haven't hunted with anything else. While I have aspirations of hunting with other projects, I keep going for my Marlin rifle.
I've toyed with the idea of purchasing a new Ruger made Marlin 1894 Classic with the 18 inch barrel to see if any velocity is picked up compared to my 16 inch but I don't have much room at the moment to justify spending the $1000 needed to buy such a rifle. This is especially true when my 16 inch CST does what I need it to from a general purpose perspective. Maybe I can justify it for Cowboy Action with a pair of Vaqueros or Taurus Deputies. I already have the side by side.
As it sits right now, I have not been able to realize a better cartridge that matches the .357 Magnum's practical applications like I have highlights above. I suspect the 10mm Auto could be configured to achieve similar results but for the semi-auto firearms available. As of now, I haven't confirmed it yet. I'm currently leaning to a CMMG Banshee rifle with a Glock 29 combination and some unverified load for 10mm will be just the ticket to achieve this goal. Even if I am successful with the 10mm, the .357 Magnum looks poised to just do the job better over all. There is, however, a curveball. Something for you to think about. I have one parting piece I want to throw out. Just as in Star Wars, as Master Yoda said "there is another." The .327 Federal Magnum. What happens when we stuff that into a Henry Big Boy 327?
Stay tuned to see what I find next.
Source Citations
South Carolina DNR Study - https://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html
Guns Magazine Citation - I am unable to post the Guns Magazine link because Google says that their domain is unsafe which triggered a Community Guidelines take down. I have removed the URL but if you want the source, you can find it in the January 1956 publication of the periodical.
As I usually do, I revisit topics I had previous spent much time thinking on and extrapolate further into the concept. In the .357 Magnum hunting concept, I have gone over a growing general interest in the cartridge and later comparing it to .30-30 as well. Then in 2023, I put the thoughts I had to the test and successfully harvested a doe which you can read about here. I would recommend reading the two linked articles as a baseline for the thoughts laid out below. The third article satisfies my desire to prove what I write about. It's not just enough to think it through, I want to execute that idea to see if it's viable. So far, the .357 Magnum topic has been my most successful venture to date. I intend to continue to see that through, however.
The most recent expansion on the idea is to verify ammunition choices for the hunting application. It started with questioning what I know about cast bullets, which is very little, and if the 358439 hollow point bullet would be sufficient for taking of whitetail deer. It very well may be but I'm not convinced that it will perform the way I think it will. If I understand correctly, I will need to adjust the bullet's lead alloy to match the velocity. Softer lead will need less velocity. My concern came about after considering the velocities for a cast bullet from GT Bullets. If I over drive the bullet, they could over expand and come part. The shank may continue to punch through but it might be the only thing that does. I would like to avoid that if I can. I want expansion and penetration of the whole expanded bullet and not just a small diameter part. For a demonstration what I mean, I recommend the 38 Special/357 Magnum cast bullet video series by Loads of Bacon on YouTube.
If my concerns are valid, I would likely see the cast 358439 LSWCHP basically explode on penetration with the deer if the alloy is too soft. While chunks of lead would spread outward in a cone shape, I don't consider this ideal even if it is mortally wounding. The next big issue I have is sorting out which alloy to use based on the use case of hunting out to 125 yards. I like the velocity of 1700 fps as a minimum for trajectory reasons but the velocity difference between 25 yards and 105 yards from a 16 inch barrel rifle is large. Tuning the bullet's alloy to match the 100 yard distance may cause the short range performance to suffer. As a result of these thoughts, I started to consider whether I should investigate the original bullet mold, the Lyman 358429.
By moving to the flat nose design, instead of the HP, I may be able to improve the perceived integrity issue. Once again, by tuning the alloy, I should still get expansion but keep integrity. I might not get as much expansion, however. Basically a JSP with out the jacket.
In the end, I won't know until I start experimenting with cast bullets beyond what I have been doing.
All that said, it led me down a rabbit hole of what ammunition does work for hunting. Previously, I had identified that the Remington HTP 158 grain semi-jacketed hollow point based load and the Hornady Custom 158 grain XTP based load should have been among the best for the application. During that investigation, I had discarded the jacketed soft point in general for hunting as I couldn't verify the lowest velocity needed for expansion. Simply put, a JSP fired from a typical revolver barrel is not moving fast enough to expand in any meaningful way. When fired from a rifle, the bullets may still expand but the question of at what distance does this still work remains. This has been found to be true by various individuals and a person with rudimentary internet searching skills can find the revolver JSP tests.
I started going back looking for data to see how the JSP's actually do from rifles. There are a few people of have done testing plus anecdotal data of people who actually hunt with them being successful.
After my research, I stand by my original choices of the hollow point bullets but I have softened on the JSP's from a rifle. I still haven't been able to validate minimum velocities for the choices on the market but I suspect that 75 yards for most of the inexpensive ones is probably fine. The Federal HammerDown load is figure is probably good for 100 yards assuming that Federal engineered them for 100 yards just as they do for the rest of their hunting ammo. The cheaper stuff might be good for 100 yards but I can't prove it just yet.
I've also found that the Barnes XPB 140 grain copper hollow point should work well down range. It might not survive up-close shots but should be fine outside 50 yards. It may also work well from a revolver.
In the end, there is definitely a wider world of useable bullets for hunting using the .357 Magnum caliber. While most of them I don't have a data set large enough to show solid proof of efficacy like I do with the HTP and XTP, what data is available hints that there is much more to learn about and test. I don't know if I will be able to start getting into ballistic gel testing anytime soon but I want to. I want to answer what bullets work at 100 yards from a .357 magnum rifle. I want at least 17 inches of penetration and around 1/2 inch of expansion that stays together.
For the 2024 deer season, my primary goal, outside of putting food in the freezer for the family, was to harvest the food using the Taurus 66 with a Burris Fastfire 3 red dot. The reasoning has been that I want to be able to carry a pistol during the deer season while on the homestead doing chores and harvest a deer should the opportunity present itself, without retrieving a rifle. Plus being able to hunt with a handgun is just cool. This year was to be the proof of concept.
The build is a newer Taurus Model 66 with a 4 inch barrel. This is actually the second one I've had as the first, a blued model, was replaced during an RMA. I replaced the rear sight with a AliExpress Doctor/Noblex mount and a Burris Fastfire 3 red dot. The dot is an older one I've had for a while that has the 8 MOA dot. While I think that dot is too large for this application, on anything 75 yards and less, the dot would still be inside the vital zone of a whitetail. It ends up not being as bad of a choice as one might think. I don't remember why I bought that size MOA dot in the first place but I wished it was smaller.
The revolver was loaded with Hornady's Custom line using the 158 grain XTP bullet. I zeroed the dot for 25 yards. That zero should let me be able to shoot out to around 85 yards without holdover as at 88 yards, the bullet should be around 3 inches down. I don't think I'd be stable enough to make that shot off hand so I'm not really worried about needing to go further with this particular build. Sadly, I only had the single, 20 round box so I had not practiced much with that load.
Opening day started interestingly. Heading into the property for an evening hunt, I knew that deer tend to like hiding in the swamp area on either side of the driveway. On this first hunt, I was armed with the Taurus and my Marlin 1894 CST. On the walk, as expected, I spooked 4 does. 3 of those appeared to be yearlings with a much larger doe. I opted to hold off on the shot with the Marlin seeing how quickly the entire thing played out and that it would have only been 5 minutes into the deer season. I slung the rifle and drew the revolver to see if they were on the other side of the bush. They weren't. I pushed into the property and waited to see if they would come back in.
A doe showed up immediately after this picture was taken.
After waiting for a short while, I needed to start heading home for baby reasons. I made an attempt to see if they had come back into the swamp area. Turns out they had but crossed into the neighbors property and I don't have the option to follow. I had missed out on my first chance.
I made a second attempt for an evening hunt a few days later. I approached the swamp area around the driveway with the revolver in hand this time, ready to go. Once again, I spooked a doe onto the drive.
I immediately presented and hunted for the dot. Mistake number 2. I knew the dot presents much higher on the Taurus than I am used to compared to my semi-auto pistols. In the rush, I couldn't find the dot. Thankfully, I had enough time to correct the issue and found the dot as a broadside was being presented. At this point, the shot distance was probably around 30 yards, no more than 45 yards. I know that with my carry gun, I can land hits at 50 yards in the vital zone standing. This off-hand shot should have been just fine.
But it wasn't.
I was able to somewhat stabilize but even in single action, I was still fairly jittery. When I pressed the trigger, the revolver snapped up. The doe stood for about a second then ran off. It didn't even seem she was hit. I took a second to recoup and walked up to where she was standing.
After searching for around 15 minutes and box scanning, I was unable to find any blood trail. Just to be sure, I walked through about where she would have run along the property line to see if I could find her. I found nothing in the 45 minutes I walked the woods along the property. I missed. While I was on the property, I stopped at my shooting tree where I have 2 metal targets hanging around the trunk of a pine. I took a shot at around 25 yards and missed again. I took a kneeling position and took another shot hitting the target.
At this point, what confidence I had in my setup is dead. I had a total of 10 rounds left from the box. 7 for the speed loader and 3 for testing and I needed to do some validation work. I took the revolver out and setup a target at 25 yards to make sure I was zeroed correctly. I found that I was pretty much on target. What I also learned is that the distance to the target was more like 50 to 60 yards, not 30. I still should have taken a knee for stability but I feel better knowing that the shot distance was further than I thought. A miss is still a miss though.
While I still had a two full months left of the deer season, pretty much anything after Thanksgiving for me is dead. Add holidays in full swing and a 3 month old baby plus everyone getting majorly sick, the deer season was pretty much over. Everyone getting sick was a little heartbreaking. One, because seeing your baby sick is just sad but it coincided with the earliest cold days when the deer that were left would have been active. I had been sick from Thanksgiving until January.
So how will I correct this issue before the 2025 deer season? Load development and practice.
My plan for 2025 is to start handloading using Hornady XTP bullets and H110 powder. I ordered 200 of the 158 grain XTP bullets which is what the factory load is using. I have my powder charges from the reloading data, all I need to do is load up several test samples for accuracy and chronograph work. I'm hoping that I can work up a load to around 1295 fps with good accuracy. This is pretty hot but I'm seeing where some people have pushed over 1300 fps from a 4 inch barrel.
Once I have my load, I need to make up quite a few and just start practicing for the 2025 deer season. I would also like to replace the red dot with something in the 2 MOA range. I do have a Vortex Venom 2.5 MOA on a 22 pistol that I could harvest. Since it's just a .22 LR, I can replace it with something cheaper from Amazon or swap the 8 MOA Fastfire.
I also have my Smith and Wesson Model 17. I have been collecting ammunition for it to see if I locate a high velocity load that's accurate for the purposes of long range pistol shooting. I figure it would be good for me to be able to practice with .22 LR being so much cheaper than centerfire cartridges. Interestingly, I am seeing that red dot mounts also exist that should fit K frame Smiths so should I truly want to make this work, I can replace the rear sight. I don't know that I want to do that yet.
Based on anecdotal data for expansion of these bullets, I'm finding, in conjunction with a ballistic calculator, if I can zero whatever dot I use with this conceptual 1300 fps load at 75 yards, I should be able to have a 100 yard capable revolver. Whether the accuracy is there to make this work is beyond me at this point but we'll find out.
Stay tuned to see how the load development turns out.
For a while now, I've had an idea on how to setup an entry level rig for handgun hunting. And no, it's not a Hi Point. I suppose you could purchase the 10mm Hi Point with the red dot and it still be cheaper but I think my idea is more interesting. What can we do for under $500 that gets us into handgun hunting?
Over the last few years, I have spent tons of time pouring over internet data looking at ballistic gel testing results for the best cartridges for defensive applications for each caliber I have. When I started looking at using pistol cartridges for hunting whitetail deer, I amended the data requirements to look for factory loads that exceed the 18 inch maximum requirement. The closer I can get to 20 inches, the better. My favorite General Purpose load for .357 Magnum is the Remington 158 gr SJHP HTP load. They are in the 18 to 19 inch range. I can confirm a pass through at 100 yards on a smaller doe from my rifle. It's how I took my only deer in 2023.
The loads that stuck out in Lucky Gunner's .40 S&W testing are the Remington Golden Saber Bonded 165 gr HP as they opened up to .66 inch and penetrated to an average of 19.6 inches, the Federal HST 180 grain at 18.5 inches of penetration at .72 inch and finally the SIG V-Crown 165 grain at .57 inch wide with 20.2 inches of penetration. All in all, I think the Federal HST load is my immediate pick. There are other notable loads in the list but I think those are the top ones. They all exceed the 18 inch FBI maximum and expanded out passed .50 inch. Please note that these loads were tested with a Glock 27 which has a 3.4 inch barrel.
If we choose the Federal HST option (part number P40HST1) for our load, we next need a launcher.
If you know where to look, I think the best option is the classic police trade in, Glock 22. This is the .40 S&W version of the original Glock 17. The gen 3 trade in units can be had regularly for under $350. As I type this, one well known surplus store has them on sale for $279.99. You can AIM to please with such a good price. The 22 has a 4.4 inch barrel which means you should expect a little more velocity compared to Lucky Gunner's testing pistol. More velocity means the bullet can go further toward your deer without reducing the expansion chances. You can take a further shot.
If you want a little more precision than what the stock open sights give you, a red dot can be mounted. I recommend milling the slide but if you are on a tight budget, the dovetail mounts might work for you. Your mileage may vary on quality.
My rough estimation on the out of pocket cost for this rig with red dot is around $450 with taxes and transfer fees and a box of ammo. While it's still more expensive than the Hi-Point, I expect the Glock is a much more reliable option. At the very least, you will have a good self defense gun if this doesn't work out.
Looking at LG's data set, the HST load achieved 960 fps average. The extra 1 inch on the 22 should get you closer to Federal's claimed 1010 fps. If we plug in 1010 fps into a ballistic calculator and zero at 25 yards, 960 fps is around 43 yards from the muzzle. We're also around .4 inch down. Thankfully, the 180 grain pill is pretty hefty and maintains velocity pretty well. At 50 yards, we're looking at 950 fps which we should still see expansion based on LG's findings. I think that's good enough for a deer stand gun.
While I don't have the funds to do this at the moment, what I do have is a SIG P226 in .40 S&W that I bought years ago. It also as a 4.4 inch barrel. I'm starting to think that maybe it's time to resurrect a project I had for that pistol a while back.
That said, my proposal is this, the police trade in Glock 22 along with the Federal HST 180 grain load is likely the best inexpensive way to get into handgun hunting.
October 21 is the opening day for the deer rifle season here in Georgia. I've been going over what build I want to try out this year. Last year was the Marlin 1894 CST in 357 Magnum which went great but I only got one doe with it. Part of the limiting factors for last year were surgery and other IVF related things. This year will be different. We will have a baby to take care of. I still have builds and ammunition choices I want to test out but I'm not sure if I will have time so I'm trying to sort out where to start.
Last year, I got three setups finished and zeroed in preparation of the baby girl getting here and not having the money to spend on the projects. First was the updated load selection for the Remington 700 .300 Blackout build. In 2022, I made a successful hunt using the Hornady 190 grain SUB-X loads. I changed to a custom ordered solid copper, hollow point subsonic load from Discreet Ballistics. I want to know if they will be effective on the whitetail here in GA. Sadly, they are running just a little too fast to be truly subsonic from my setup. I can still test the effectiveness of those wild, Machined Expander hollow points. I had actually made some changes to the stock by replacing it with an AR pistol buffer tube and adapter for my niece so she should go out with the rifle. She's a little small for the JMAC Customs stock but the buffer tube with a foam cheek rest let her get behind the scope with the rifle mounted in a tripod. She didn't get anything so I put the stock back on.
I like the idea of confirming if these bullets work well or not so that puts the Remington 700 in .300 BLK as our first option.
Next is the WWSD Hunter .300 Blackout build with the SIG 120 grain copper hollow points. The WWSD was originally chambered for .350 Legend but I ran into several issues at the same time and chose to rebarrel for .300 Blackout. The replacement SIG Romeo5 red dot and the Juliet 3X magnifier would more or less, make the WWSD AR-15 build a General Purpose rifle than a hunting rifle. However, given the lightweight construction and materials used in the WWSD concept, having a rifle this light can be very handy.
After finishing the build, I zeroed the rifle for 50 yards and confirmed velocities around 2400 fps. That should put the bullet around three inches down at 200 yards. That said, I don't know for sure what the minimum velocity is for those bullets to expand is and the lowest number I had been able to locate was around 2000 fps. The chart shows that I should expect around 150 yards to hit that 2000 fps mark. If all of that is accurate, the WWSD Hunter 300 Blackout should be a 150 yard hunting rifle.
That said, should is a big word and the only way to know for sure is to get out there a bag deer. Seeing as I have already taken deer with the Remington 700, I'm inclined to take out the AR-15 this time to get in-field time with the rifle.
With the silencer attached, the WWSD AR-15 is under 9 lbs
Finally, the Taurus 66 with the Burris Fastfire 3 and the Hornady Custom XTP 158 grain loads. Last year, I was able to get the Fastfire to mount up with a cheap mount I found on the internet. I zeroed it for around 25 yards and should still be good for around 75 yards based on metrics gathered from various sources on the internet from gel testing. The game plan for the Model 66 is to carry it around with me during the deer season while I'm doing chores. If a deer shows up then I will take the opportunity to bag it.
The 66 is my first foray into the world of handgun hunting. It was originally meant for bear defense while hiking trails around Appalachia. I don't hike anymore being on the South side of Atlanta since there just aren't that many good trails. None of the trails are likely to have bear down this far. Getting North of Atlanta takes at least an hour on it's own to get around I-285 so it's just not worth the headache to drive the 2 hours to Dahlonega and further. I sure do miss the mountains.
Anyway, with the Model 66 setup and zeroed. It's no extra effort to carry the revolver in place of my P365XL. Because of it being easy to carry, I guarantee it will be out with me on the farm from 21 OCT to 14 JAN 2025.
Originally, the 66 had an adjustable rear sight which should have been fine but I wanted to see if anyone made a red dot mount. Just for fun, I ordered one and it showed up. It took some doing but I was able to beat the mount and pins into submission and test fit the 8 MOA Burris FastFire 3 I had on my turkey Remington 870. Seeing as how I am rather familiar with red dots, I figured it would make getting into handgun hunting much easier. I have a very limited supply of .357 Magnum and practicing to make 75 yard shots with iron sights takes time and ammo. This helps mitigate training needs for now. I will likely switch the dot back to the 870 and put the irons back on. That 8 MOA dot is just huge for what I'm trying to do.
Ignore the butcher job I did on the holster to make the red dot fit. I'll clean it up some day.
Finally, I could continue on with the Marlin 1894 CST in .357 Magnum. I have come to enjoy that rifle and I like the idea behind continuing to prove that my setup and selection process do actually work.
For the bonus option, if I feel like it, the Winchester 94 is back in action and ready for work. Mostly. I was able to get the rifle out to the range and zeroed with 170 grain JSPs. The open sights are good to go with the Turnbull Restoration red dot mount ready if I want to go that route. The only red dot I have available is on the Henry 22 for the moment but at 50 yards. The iron sights should be fine. That could be a fun option especially if I get to go out on an invited hunt with someone this year.
There you have it. The many options for hunting that I can choose. Depending on how aggressive I am this year and what opportunities present themselves, I can take all of these out over the season.
While I was researching for my article Categories of Commercial Sporting Rifles Destroyed by the NFA, I had been perusing Chiappa's website at the Little Badger TDX. I was thinking that I would like to have a Steven's Pocket Rifle of my own which the Little Badger would be a good stand in. I knew they had the TDX and the Deluxe. I knew they had the Double Badger but I just found out that they make the Big Badger. What a great name.
They offer two models currently. One is a shotgun in .410 with the other being the rifle cartridge, of all things, .350 Legend. Both rifles have a wire stock with a cheek riser. Both have an handguard with M-LOK slots on the 3- and 9-o'clock sides with picatinny on top and bottom. Both have 20 inch barrels.
Externally, the only differences are that the .410 shotgun version has a front sight while the .350 Legend version has no sights but does have a threaded barrel. No mention of the thread pitch. I reached out to Chiappa to confirm. I still have some Winchester 180 grain .350 Legend from the WWSD Hunter 350 project and I still think 350 Legend would make for a great cast bullet, reloader's cartridge. Maybe this could be a good way to get into that with street prices being under $300. That recoil will likely be pretty stout at 5.5 lbs.
I wonder if they would do a Deluxe version with a wood stock like the Little Badger Deluxe.
Update: They also have a 30-30 model with a threaded barrel.
The Georgia DNR finalized the 2023 to 2024 deer season's regs on 25 MAY. For me, opening day for Firearms Season is 21 OCT and the season will end on 14 JAN 2024. I don't yet hunt with a bow or muzzleloader, so I won't be taking advantage of the earlier dates associated with those seasons. After looking over the seasons of other states, I've come to love the Georgia deer season.
This year my goals are fairly simple. Now that I have several of my rifle projects completed, it's time to put them into the field and go hunt some deer. The closer we get, the more excited I am.
I stripped the Marlin 1894 CST in 357 Magnum of the Leupold 2.5x and reinstalled the Midwest Industries T1 Mount and iron sights putting the rifle back into the ProjectVaquero setup. I found that I very much like this layout but I don't know how I will like it in for deer hunting on the Farm. It should be good for 100 yards with the current setup. I had to re-zero but I wasn't setup for 100 yards so I zeroed at a shorter range that should match. Around 22 yards should be the first zero putting the second zero around 100 yards. It should be no more than 1.1 inches with the peak of the arc around 62 yards. The calculator puts my bullet down around 3 inches low at 133 yards. The calculated velocity of those Remington 158 grain semi-jacketed hollow points around 1300 fps at that point. That should be enough to achieve expansion.
The Marlin is my favorite Farm gun. It rides shotgun often.
Speaking of expansion, every resource I have seen where people tested those Remington HTP rounds found that they expand to at least .50 caliber whether it's from a rifle or pistol. YouTube has various videos where someone tested those rounds from rifles and pistols in gel. Lucky Gunner did some testing as well. I have full confidence that those bullets will perform and penetrate deep enough. I picked up several boxes to keep in stock and plan to buy more. Much more.
Lucky Gunner posted this picture from their test. You can find it on their website in the Labs section. I can't thank those folks enough for their contribution to the firearms world. If you ever had questions about ammo selection, you should start there.
There doesn't appear to be a hard and fast rule on how far a bullet should penetrate ballistic gelatin for said load to be suitable for deer hunting but I've seen anecdotal data pointing to a preference of around 20 inches. Those HTPs appear to come close to that.
On the accuracy front, I've never really sat down to see what sort of groups I could get the Marlin 357 to do. Back in 2022, I zeroed the rifle with the setup I have now and was getting around 4 inch groups or so at 100 yards. I'm not much of a marksman and having no magnification won't help my case so I attribute that grouping to myself more than the gun. While I'd like to sit down and test again, I don't want to use the ammo up. I don't have sponsors to send me ammo when I need it.
If Remington ammunition wants to sponsor me, I will be happy to switch my other Farm Gun, the .300 Blackout, to their Core-Lokt line up and see how it goes in leu of the SIG Elite I currently use. I know the 30-30 Core-Lokt will kill deer since that's what I used until I had the Federal Fusion 170. I've still not gotten to use those Federal rounds to take a deer. On a side note, I'm not so sure these days that Marlin will release a threaded barrel version of the 336 and wood stocks that I can use as a dedicated hunting rifle. We'll see if the 336 project turns out. I have alternative plans if Marlin doesn't release a TB version of the 336.
Getting back to the topic of being majorly excited for deer season, once I get at least one deer, I'll start looking at taking the WWSD 300 Blackout build I put together and see it those SIG Elite all copper bullets work as advertised. That will depend on how the situation goes with the Marlin. I'm not as confident with just the red dot at shorter ranges as I am with a little magnification and I think I should try to get over that.
In conclusion, deer season cannot get here soon enough. I want to get out into the woods and find a good deer. Maybe this year will be my first buck.
If you spend enough time in the gun world, you learn about ballistic gelatin. The TL:DR version of what it is, it's a replicable medium that can be used to test bullets for terminal performance such as depth of penetration and expansion of expanding bullets. While gelatin isn't flesh such as deer or human, it behaves in such a way that you can extrapolate data to give you an idea of what a bullet will do down range. It's meant to be used in a controlled way to allow for repeatable results.
I spent a lot of time researching the efforts of numerous people who have attempted to test numerous bullets from pistols and rifles when I was trying to find the correct carry ammunition. The data I've gathered from YouTube channels such as TheChoppingBlock, ShootingTheBull410. Tools&Targets, Mason Leather, WHO TEE WHO, TNOutdoors9, Social Regressive and even Paul Harrell along with Lucky Gunner Labs and others have all contributed to ammunition choices I've considered to be appropriate for self defense and hunting. It's how I ended up choosing Remington's 158 gr SJHP load in the 357 Mag for use in both rifles and revolvers and how I chose Federal's 170 gr Fusion in 30-30 for hunting deer.
Most of these folks follow some sort of protocol in varying levels. One of the more overlooked uses for ballistic gelatin is for testing hunting ammunition. Several of the above sources have put effort into testing popular hunting ammo but not everyone is testing the same way. Mr. Mason seems to be putting great effort into testing at common distances. Most of the loads tested have been at 100 yards which, according to many people, is typically around where most folks are actually shooting deer and similar animals. All the deer I've ever shot (not that it's a lot) have been under 100 yards. Most of the time I either close the distance or wait for them to get in closer. I've had deer come in close enough I could have spit on the doe. Deer are stupid, that's not much of an achievement.
One thing I would love to see is, what is the MAXIMUM distance various bullets are capable of achieving and still being effective. Many people have said that 30-30, the old hunting cartridge, is only really good out to 150 yards. Why? Is that because your rifle isn't that accurate? Are your old eyes unable to shoot beyond that? Do your bullets just suck? I want to know.
Setting blocks of gel out at various distances can be tricky and landing hits possibly hard to do. I got to thinking about it and one of the best ways I could come up with to test this is put these hunting loads into a pistol such as a Thompson Center Encore and shoot at shorter distances. Alternatively, if you can get the bullets and handload reduced power loads. That's probably more economical.
Depending on the load, 200 yards for 30-30 ends up around 1800 fps. You should be able to achieve that with a barrel length around 10 inches. If you adjust the distance to the block, you can start to reduce the velocity at the target.
By knowing the lowest velocity your bullets expand, you can find out how far you can actually shoot and still be effective. That is useful. Achieving the goal, though, is tedious.
After finishing the project I called the WWSD Hunter 350 and got it running, I ran into some issues. As a results of thinking it over, I'm re-barreling the rifle from 350 Legend to 300 Blackout. What happened afterward has turned into a bit of a saga.
The What Would Stoner Do or WWSD concept was a joint venture by folks at Forgotten Weapons and InRange TV and others to produce a rifle they envisioned to be what Eugene Stoner, the inventor of the AR-15, would do today with our modern materials and machines. What they came up with was a rifle with a combination lower receiver and stock made of polymer and a upper receiver that uses a pencil profile barrel and carbon handguard to make the whole rifle very lightweight. Like 5 pounds light. The lower receiver is made by KE Arms as the KP-15. I used that lower along with a Lancer carbon fiber handguard but went with a round profile. I wish I had used their octagonal unit instead of the round but it's not an issue. I used an inexpensive AR Stoner barrel from MidwayUSA since I didn't want to put a ton of money into it and there aren't too many options for 350 Legend barrels. The goal was to replace my 1970's era Winchester 94 in 30-30 with a modern rifle platform while being ballistically similar.
The first reason I'm changing is ammunition availability. Here in Georgia, 350 Legend is not a high priority cartridge. It's meant for people in straight-wall states like Ohio. The only ammunition I can regularly buy is the 180 grain Winchester Power Point or the 145 grain FMJ. The FMJ doesn't mean much to me but I found that it didn't run in my gun and would immediately experience a failure to feed. The 180 grain Winchester soft points ran fine enough but I really want the Federal Fusion load. Turns out, I can't find them locally or online. My concern here is, even if I could find the Federal Fusion load, will they even run? That's just potentially more money spent testing. Due diligence says I should test everything I can but I won't be doing that. The only other options are another Winchester load, the 150 grain XP round or Hornady's offerings. The SUB-X could be a cool load but I'm not sure that I'm looking for another subsonic hunting round. My Remington 700 in 300 Blackout is already setup for subsonic work specifically. It works very well by the way. I took a doe in November 2022 at about 40 yards with those SUB-X in 300 BLK. That said, there are more choices for 300 Blackout than for 350 Legend since 300 has been around a lot longer.
The second issue I ran into was with the build. I'm getting issues with zero. I had zeroed the gun then gone home. When I went back to the range to verify zero for the 2022 hunting season and that the gun was working correctly, the first round was way off. I adjusted then took a test shot finding I had to adjust back to where I was. I haven't always been able to replicate the issue but replication requires ammunition. Since the gun doesn't want to run the cheaper stuff, it becomes more expensive just to test with the 180 gr Winchester loads which is already hard to find. When I do find it on the shelf, it's usually one box.
The zeroing could be an issue with how I mounted the JMAC Customs muzzle device or maybe with the scope's mount or the scope itself. I did find that the Primary Arms 3-9x Classic is only intended for .223 Remington. 350 Legend does have a higher recoil impulse and the scope might not be able to handle that. At this point, I'm not sure as to what is causing the issue with the shifting zero and ammo is too expensive and hard to get for 350 Legend for me to properly test. As a result of all the issues with this build, I'm switching to something that I know works; 300 Blackout.
I have successfully taken deer with 300 Blackout even in it's subsonic form and I've really started to appreciate the little 30 caliber cartridge. When I was conceptualizing the gun, I had considered another cartridge called 6mm ARC. It's a pretty impressive cartridge on paper. To re-barrel for 6mm ARC would be replacement parts like the bolt, magazine and barrel. Then I would have to find ammo that's even harder to get than 350 Legend. That alone is enough to push 6mm ARC out of the running. Same goes for 6.5 Grendel, 7.62x39, 9x39, and 6.8 SPC. 5.56x45mm is an option since I have a spare barrel and ammo for it but I already have several guns in 5.56 including at 16 inch barrel gun. While my Remington 700 build is in 300 Blackout, that setup is geared toward subsonic ammunition specifically so a supersonic or multi-load capable build seems more prudent. 300 Blackout is bottlenecked and should automatically have a reduced chance of feeding issues compared to 350 Legend in this platform. I already have a bunch of 300 Blackout ammo in my inventory so I can test more in depth. Basically, by switching to 300 Blackout, I cam minimize troubleshooting efforts and help with ammo standardization.
A cool thing about the replacement barrel from Anderson is the profile. The barrel uses a pistol length gas system and from the gas block forward, the profile is the same. It's almost a heavy profile. Anderson claims it's a government profile but there's a lot missing from that. It's probably partly true as the space behind the block is narrow and contoured nicely but the gas system is so short making the layout goofy. The upshot on this profile means that I can have a gunsmith trim the barrel back to anything useable. Remember that 16 inches of rifle barrel is merely a tax issue. I had considered a 13.7 pin and weld job and I've tinkered with the idea of trimming down to match the barrel to the handguard. If the NFA 1934 dies, then I would just cut it down to 10 inches and replace the handguard with another Lancer unit. That would reduce the weight quite a bit. It would make the rifle massively more user friendly with a 10 inch barrel. If I settle on a length, I could also have a gunsmith flute or turn down the contour to reduce weight even more so. Sadly, though, it turns out that the 350 Legend barrel is actually lightly lighter by around 1.5 oz so I ended up making the gun slightly heavier.
Even still, with the rifle around 7.8 lbs without the silencer, this rifle goes from being a hunting specific gun to a rifle that I would easily carry around the homestead without too much issue. Turns out, I'm building another farm gun but I really like that concept. During the 2022 hunting season, I took my Marlin 1894 CST, ArgentGranjero, around as I would do work in case a deer made itself available for my freezer. I also have carried around a Marlin 60 for squirrel hunting while I did a little trash pick up on the Western edge of the property. All in all, I found that I appreciate the lighter guns but I will say that I do wish the Marlin had provisions for a weapon mounted light. My primary AR-15, ProjectCarbine, with everything is pretty heavy and I've taken to leaving it at home. I prefer a semi-auto for defense and general use application so having a much lighter weight semi-auto rifle in a caliber similar in use to 5.56 will be great. That really puts the What Would Stoner Do Hunter Mod 1 into a good position as a Farm Gun. Maybe I should start calling it the WWSD Farmer.
After completing the re-barrel and re-assembling the gun, instead of mounting the PA 3-9x scope I had used originally, I opted to use a SIG Remeo5 red dot. Since I don't trust the mount the PA is using currently, this seemed like a good idea. When I got out to the farm, I successfully ran a few subsonic Federal American Eagle rounds. That indicated I wouldn't need to makes changes to the adjustable gas block. It ran without issue everything I fed the rifle that day. I pulled out my Caldwell chronograph and ran a string of SIG's 120 gr Elite all copper, hunting rounds. The average of the 5 shot velocity I got with the 16 inch barrel was 2441.8 fps. That's better than the 2250 fps on the box. I don't know what test barrel length they used to get that. I'm thinking around 10 or 12 inches. That will come up later because it's caused me to reconsider the project completely.
The rifle is loaded with a 20 round magazine full of 220 gr subs.
After I completed my other chores for the day, I setup my target stand and a IDPA with a white back to zero. I had planned on zeroing for 50 yards previously. After using a few cheaper Remington 120 gr as sighters, I walked in the rest of the zero with the SIG 120's very quickly. I couldn't believe how much easier it was with the 300's than the 350's. To confirm this wasn't a fluke, I took a quick test shot on a 6 inch steel gong I have at 50 yards. The bullet absolutely hammering that gong broke the thick gauge wire used to hang the target.
For fun, I loaded a couple of subsonic 220 gr rounds and tested one on the paper target to check for bullet drop. I got about 1 inch or so down. I went back to the 50 yard line and sent a second test round to the 50 yard gong and connected successfully after adjusting for a slight drop. At this point, I'm excited.
This rifle is running nicely, it handles well and feels light enough for me to carry around the farm without issue. I've successfully zeroed the rifle and it shoots both supers and subs very well. I stopped for a minute to consider the changes and go over my accomplishments for the day. I pulled up an online ballistic calculator to run the numbers I got from the chronograph. The below chart is calculated using SIG's posted BC of .290 and the velocity numbers I got of 2441 fps. I assumed a 2.6 inch scope height and 50 yard zero.
Based on testing done by folks like the Chopping Block and Tools & Targets who's videos are on YouTube, the SIG rounds will still expand around 2060 fps. In Tools & Target's video, the bullet expanded to around .40 caliber at an average velocity of 2059 fps. The Chopping Block's video had an average around 2100 fps with much better expansion. I don't know what the absolute minimum velocity is for these bullets but the ballistic chart says around 150 yards is pushing around 2020 fps. It's possible these bullets will still expand at the low 2000's range. Until someone can do further testing I'll say that around 150 yards is the absolute ragged edge this load can take a deer with the bullets still expanding. Pay further attention to the bullet drop. The 50 yard zero has a secondary zero right at 150 yards; -0.02 inches down. The bullet is up around 1 inch at 100 yards. Essentially, this rifle is now zeroed so I don't have to hold over. As long as the deer I'm trying to take is between 150 yards, I just need to hold right on the vitals. This flight path is far better than the 350 Legend had from this rifle.
With the new dope chart and the gun zeroed with the red dot I'm not wanting to making changes to the sighting plane for a while. Plus ammo is expensive. For the foreseeable future, I will be running the WWSD Hunter Mod 1 with a red dot but I've been looking at adding a Primary Arms 3x micro magnifier or find a 5x micro like the SIG Juliet. They add extra weight but given that they can be setup with a quick detach mount, I might leave it in the truck during the off season and add it during the deer season. I would be inclined to just run the red dot but my astigmatism is so bad even with good glasses, I struggle to see some smaller details at distances like 50 yards. I can't guarantee I can make a clean shot on a deer's vitals past 75 yards.
Testing day turned out to be pretty great. Having seen the rifle come together was really rewarding. I truly wished I had more ammo to burn because shooting the WWSD Hunter Mod 1 was such a pleasure. The Dead Air Wolfman in the short configuration keeps the subsonic rounds reasonably quiet. The supersonic loads didn't seem to ring my ears but they still have a loud report. I would like to test more subsonic loads like the Hornady SUB-X for the hold overs to see if I could just use this rifle to hunt with instead of the Remington 700 I built. I will continue to keep the WWSD Hunter with me as I go about projects and chores over the next year to see how it does.
Editor's Note: The original article was a mess and was missing a ton of data. Some of the data was just wrong. The image above was taken without removing the cartridges that are stored in the butt stock's compartment. There's around 6 rounds of 350 Legend stored there skewing the weights. The rifle is actually more like 7.8 lbs without the silencer and around 8.7 lbs with the Dead Air Wolfman.
I starting hunting deer with a used, clapped out Winchester 94 built in the 1970's that I got running again and this year I replaced it with a brand new, high tech, custom built AR-15.
Why do you need an AR-15? Because it does all the jobs a long gun really needs to do; put food on the table, defend the home and defend the Heartland from all threats foreign and domestic and do it in a way that is cost effective.
BUT YOU CAN"T HUNT WITH AN AR-15!1!!! Blah blah blah.
Yes you can but just because you don't understand what's going on, doesn't mean you can't hunt with an AR-15. Firstly, bullet selection is the most important part of this discussion. While you can go hunting with full metal jacket bullets, you really shouldn't. In Georgia, you legally can't, therefore necessitating that we choose a cartridge that has suitable bullet designs. Thankfully, that's pretty much most commercially available cartridges, including .223 Remington or 5.56 NATO, on the market which has a loading using either a hollow point or soft point bullet.
Next, we need to identify what we are doing with the gun. In this case, we want to hunt deer and since most of my shots are under 120 yards, I have no need for a rifle that shoots further. That statement right there is what makes the Winchester 94 in 30-30 an American mainstay for hunting. The Model 94 has been around since 1894 and there are several companies making surrogates such as Marlin, Mossberg and Henry. Why does Winchester and friends continue to sell lever action rifles in 30-30? Because 30-30 works great for deer in short ranges and people LOVE level action rifles. ROMANCE!
Since those parameters of sub-150 yard range and 30-30 level performance is achievable we just need to find something that isn't 30-30 that is close. In 2018, Olin released a new cartridge called 350 Legend. Both cartridges operate around the 2200 FPS range with bullet weights around the 150 to 170 grain range. This should put us in the 1600 to 1800 ft-lbs of energy range.
350 Legend on the left with 30-30 on the right.
Ultimately, the 350 Legend has a very similar ballistic performance envelope compared with 30-30. The differences are that the 350 Legend is a .35 caliber or 9mm bullet to 30-30's .308 caliber bullet and that 30-30 has a much larger case but the pressure rating is much lower than 350 Legend at 42,000 PSI vs 55,000 PSI chamber pressure. This means that the 350 Legend can have a shorter, smaller case for the same performance of the 30-30. Thankfully, Olin (who owns Winchester) was able to package the 350 Legend into an over all length that makes it work in the AR-15's magazine and action. This is how we are able to use the AR-15 platform for taking deer as a dead replacement for the Model 94. There are other cartridges such as 300 HAM'R but since 300 HAM'R isn't as widely offered, 350 Legend seems to make more sense.
I added a few extra requirements that my replacement build needed to achieve. It needed to be lighter than or equal to the Winchester in it's in-field weight which is 8.5 lbs, It needed to be able to host my silencer and be able to use modern scopes such as the low power, variable optic type scope. It needed to be more ergonomic and finally, not too expensive.
The AR-15 easily can be built with all of those accessories to reach well into the 9 lbs range so I started looking for lightweight parts to reduce the build weight. When I built out the upper receiver and added the scope, the weight was right at 5 lbs. When I added the original A2 style stock I have for another build, I ended up right at 8.5 lbs. Changing over to lower with a CAR stock brings the weight down a little but we can do better. Thankfully, Lancer has options for carbon fiber handguards and the awesome dudes at InRange TV worked with KE Arms to put together a lower receiver and stock combo that weighs under 2 lbs. With the WWSD (What Would Stoner Do) KP-15 lower and stock we reduced weight even more. Sadly, no one is making a 350 Legend barrel in a sporter profile so I had to use a standard profile barrel.
I was able to build this rifle to just at 7.6 lbs with scope but without the Dead Air Wolfman silencer and 8 lbs with the silencer using a fixed mount. I'd say I nailed the weight part.
In the end, I was successful in assembling a replacement for my Winchester 94 with an AR-15 for hunting deer. I haven't been able to tune AR or do any real testing or corrective action as ammo is so incredibly expensive right now. The best I could do was zero the current Primary Arms LPVO it has on top. It is an absolute struggle to find any usable ammo let alone any ammo loaded for hunting. I'm still waiting for the Federal Fusion 160 grains to become available but when they do, I'll be stocking up for testing.
